Almost everyone wants to "skip" having to raid!

[Purrfectstorm]

You talk like SE doesn't agree with what he just posted, they do but get ignored as people are determined to project their own vision for the game as anything but their own vision. Going to continue reposting this until people stop ignoring it.


http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/120...9-Translations


From their perspective, they care about people selling runs of current raid content.

I didn't say they didn't care, I said they shouldn't care.

But companies can have tunnel vision about what the customers want. Henry Ford didn't see the need to sell cars in different colors, for example, and did you know that computers were criticized also? That's right, because surely there would "be no market" for them. SE is just wrong here. That's all there is to it. They're like a bad dungeon master in a game of Dungeons and Dragons that tries to funnel players into their way of playing.

SE talks about "alternative progressions paths" well crafters buying wins from their sales profits is an alternate path (and they've trivialized crafting anyway, so why not let crafters do this?).

Envision it this way (forgive me while I make up some numbers):

Scenario #1 (current system): You play for 10 hours per week to gear up from new Coil with your Static. Other players are forced to do this also so # of players times 10 hours per week = total play time.

Scenario #2 (loot lockouts instead of turn lock outs): You play for 10 hours per week to get up from new Coil AND you also sell runs to other players for some number of hours per week. Your buyers play for 10 hours per week to afford your fee = an increase of total play time that depends on how many hours you want to play extra to sell runs. The only way this doesn't lead to an increase in play time is if it takes the players who are buying runs less time to make the money than it does for a player to gear up without buying a run. I don't think we have to worry about this LOL

As a business, SE wants to make money, that means they want people to keep subbing. People will keep subbing if the game is A) Fun and B) They can do that fun stuff on a regular basis. Both these things are more true in Scenario 2 than Scenario 1 and here's why: Players that are selling runs get to play the content more often (and enjoy being badass enough to sell runs) and players that are buying runs get to enjoy playing the way they want AND they get to enjoy their cool gear also (not because they didn't earn it but because the earned it in a different way).

[SarcasmMisser]

It's the same deal with RMT, why pay someone else to play the game for you. It's for entertainment, if it isn't fun, why spend the money in the first place? If it isn't fun, you should spend money on something that is fun.

I'm reminded of an old D3 streamer from Qatar called Cro. He was filthy rich from being the heir to some oil company and would stream himself dropping hundreds of dollars on items at a time, ending up spending 10k+ on a single toon.

It's because fun for them is just getting the loot then uh, well I don't know I can't relate to that. But that is it, different strokes and all. I say this as someone who sells runs, at least the buyers are honest about what they want. Statics are very hit and miss and full of drama because of dishonest people. People are dishonest to each other about what they really want, what they are going to bring to a group and dishonest to themselves about what's really holding them back.

It's really not at all surprising that even though there are so many people out there that want to do this content it is hard to get groups together. Most people just want the loot, they don't want the effort it takes and few have a passion for difficulty. They don't want to socialize with people outside their comfort zone because they're all this and that, they don't want to put in time to practice they just want the clears. It's something I only ever see in mmos, that in response to challenging content people will just petition the company to make changes so they can get the loot on terms they're comfortable with, instead of either accepting it or move on. Is it because of the way content is rolled out that there is this feel of community participation in game design? Or the frequent broken promises that makes people feel that the vision of the producer is very weak and easily changed?

Any other difficult game I play the vision of the game is not petitioned against, people either accept the difficulty and what it takes or play something else.

[SarcasmMisser]

...

We are players not SE shareholders so lets drop the stuff about what will make SE more money, that is not our interest. Cash shops and f2p models make more money, not making mmos makes even more money. Be honest about what you want and why.

The core of the issue is that you asked "so" when someone brought up mercing, and the reason why this is an issue is because SE has clearly stated it's an issue, being the masters of the direction of this game makes this an issue. So you disagree with the vision of the game, why because it doesn't make them money? Be honest really, don't put out arguments why SE should change it's direction, do you think they will listen to the sage economic advice of forum posts over the people they employ who are actually trained in finance? Say why you don't like the current direction and in that case why you don't just find a game that agrees more with your tastes?

The posts above are more honest, they don't like raiding and clearly state their frustrations with it. The same question extends to them though, I personally would of quit this game long ago if the raids didn't have as much promise as they do and went back to other games that I really enjoy. I respect the independent design decisions of any game maker, and enjoy the games where their decisions are to my taste.

[Purrfectstorm]

Just for reference:


Raider's Perspective On Work: People are lazy and want things handed to them.
Non-Raider's Perspective On Work: Games should be fun, not feel like work.

Raider's Perspective On Socializing: People just want to play alone or with a few other players.
Non-Raider's Perspective On Socializing: Outside of a very small group of trusted people, I'll have to deal with jerks.

Raider's Perspective On Statics: It's easy to make the time for static play.
Non-Raider's Perspective On Statics: Even so, I'm not in a rush to have the best gear right now.

Raider's Perspective On Challenge: I relish the challenge of new content.
Non-Raider's Perspective On Challenge: The content will still retain the challenge when the lockout is removed.

Just a few examples that hopefully demonstrate that non-raiders don't necessarily want things handed to them, not want to play with other players, have time constraints preventing them from joining statics, or not relish challenge.

[hours]

Is the concern towards socialization WHILE raiding or can those two be independent?

Because all of my friends, whether they are the RL ones who play on different servers or the few in-game ones on my server, play to socialize with other people and all of them avoid raids like the plague. I am the only person who is constantly raiding and playing alone. Them? They just use the game as a chatroom.

[Seiryuukishi]

Snip.

The reason why I do not return to LotRO is because of some recent changes they made to the classes I am very unhappy with as well as I hold out hope for this game and community of players. Far fetched though it may seem to most this game is still in its fledgling stages. I am interested in seeing where it goes. I am also currently enthralled by crafting. That's it in a nutshell.

[Cherie]

Is the concern towards socialization WHILE raiding or can those two be independent?

Because all of my friends, whether they are the RL ones who play on different servers or the few in-game ones on my server, play to socialize with other people and all of them avoid raids like the plague. I am the only person who is constantly raiding and playing alone. Them? They just use the game as a chatroom.

Very true... I can understand wanting to use these games for socializing I think. Personally, I had gravitated toward the "RP" type servers when those were a popular thing in these games, even though I'm not really in to RP. I just enjoy having people around that like to socialize and found that people on those servers people liked to talk more. Faeblight server in Rift was a RP server, but very little RP went on in the day to day activities there. There was RP to be found, but most people there were just others that didn't mind RP and might or might not have actually done any themselves. But usually they found the game itself to be a social outlet.

In a way, I find many just like to be a cat, lala, or whatever and play around as their avatar. Whatever these games evolve in to in the future, whether raiding as we know it goes away or not, we obviously have quite a few people that still play these things, I just wish there were more activities that were fun. It seems like most people find things like the various farm activities a bit mundane. While those same people might find raiding too extreme, maybe there is some middle ground that developers could figure out.

[Purrfectstorm]

We are players not SE shareholders so lets drop the stuff about what will make SE more money, that is not our interest. Cash shops and f2p models make more money, not making mmos makes even more money. Be honest about what you want and why.

The core of the issue is that you asked "so" when someone brought up mercing, and the reason why this is an issue is because SE has clearly stated it's an issue, being the masters of the direction of this game makes this an issue. So you disagree with the vision of the game, why because it doesn't make them money? Be honest really, don't put out arguments why SE should change it's direction, do you think they will listen to the sage economic advice of forum posts over the people they employ who are actually trained in finance? Say why you don't like the current direction and in that case why you don't just find a game that agrees more with your tastes?

The posts above are more honest, they don't like raiding and clearly state their frustrations with it. The same question extends to them though, I personally would of quit this game long ago if the raids didn't have as much promise as they do and went back to other games that I really enjoy. I respect the independent design decisions of any game maker, and enjoy the games where their decisions are to my taste.

I personally care because I would have more fun playing if I didn't have to have a static for the new content. I thought that was obvious without my spelling it out. I don't directly care how much money SE makes anymore than they directly care how much fun I have but you can see that the two are still connected right? If SE stops making money, they stop supporting a game that I currently enjoy. If I stop enjoying the game, I stop giving SE money.

As far as the old hat defensive response "If you don't like it, play another game!" my answer is more complex and involves extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. I don't like exercise but I do it because I want the end result. Similarly, I don't like grinding the same dungeon 100 times but it feels pretty sweet to buy a new piece of tome gear. However, research has shown that people are more likely to continue repeating a behavior that has intrinsic as well as extrinsic rewards. For me (and for many other players I know) that would mean getting gear through a number of different means rather than having to rely on the same (easy) one over and over.

What happens next after behavior stops being rewarded is called extinction, the behavior gradually stops repeating, (in this case, my playing the game). A simpler answer to your response might be just that I enjoy most aspects of FFXIV but not this one. I was not trying to hide the fact that my comments represented my own interests, namely to enjoy the game even more.

[Ikeda]

snip

It's because WoW attracted a apocalyptic amount of people to mmos that have no business playing mmos because they don't have the patience to deal with the long term-centric fundamental designs of mmos. So now we get "mmos" (really just single player online games where the people you play with may as well be npcs) and no one caters to real mmo players anymore because for some reason WoW's unfortunate success seemingly gave every other mmo developer out there the delusion that real mmo players aren't a profitable crowd anymore.

[Gormogon]

when did things change?l

It changed when raids standard form was simply seeking out the bodies to do the content with to today format where it is now difficult and stressful content where nearly all the players in the group need to play near picture perfect and having to follow a strict code of "watch video" and "perform up to a standard of unquestionable excellence" or deal with constant whining, moaning, complaining, and the overall drama that breaks groups apart.

While it isn't impossible to do it is a tedious requirement for a video game, which is why I rather wait for duty finder.