When to use Flare?

[NoctisUmbra]

Apologies for the double post, but I was casually browsing on my mobile for my earlier posts and I have to admit I only just skimmed through and didn't even bother to quote :/

After Your fire 2's and up until your very low on mp (after a while you will know the timing) then cast flare> convert>either swiftcast flare or just flare> Mega Ether> Flare
There you have 3 Flares
You can do more then 3 flares with transpose but using flares after you transpose is a very big loss of dps, same goes for instance if you would flare under umbral Ice
Triple flares i have been using in coil and all the new HM dungeons, and if you have 2 blm's around well yes

The bit about not using Flares after Transpose isn't entirely good advice. That, coupled with the mention of Fire II, suggests to me that you aren't familiar with the superior AoE rotation that is the double flare rotation, Maero. Said rotation involves doing exactly what you're suggesting not to do, after all

When approaching a fresh AoE pack, you do the following traditionally:

Fire III > Flare > Convert > Swiftcast > Flare > Transpose > WAIT* > Flare > Flare > Transpose > WAIT* > Flare > Flare > etc...

Obviously the opener can be extended with an Ether.

Now, the WAIT is the critical section of this rotation. The idea is, you want to time your cast so that you get a fresh tick of MP in your Umbral Ice state just as your first Flare goes through. This puts you into Astral Fire III and also leaves you with enough MP to cast the 2nd Flare.

The basic guideline for how long you wait is after you Transpose, you wait until you see your first tick of MP. As soon as you see it, you count 2 seconds in your head. You have to begin casting your Flare just before you would say 2, that is just shy of 2 seconds after your first tick of MP. The window of error is actually quite forgiving, but if you stick with that rule of thumb you should get it. Some practice at the training dummies is a good way to establish the muscle memory.


It's counter-intuitive that the best rotation is one that involves waiting, but unfortunately that's the case here due both to the fact that Fire II is much too far below Flare in potency, and that this rotation involves casting Flare, and only Flare, after the opener and no time wasted on a single target spell.

[silvio]

You can do more then 3 flares with transpose but using flares after you transpose is a very big loss of dps

i'll have to agree with noctis and say that flaring after transpose is higher dps. it is counter-intuitive but my eyes were opened recently (by mrhappy lol). essentially, instead of casting fire3 after flare > transpose, you cast flare. even though you're casting it from UI, the potency is still higher than fire3, but more important, you're hitting multiple mobs. the only thing is you have to time it so that you get a tick of mana as your flare hits. this means waiting for your first tick of mana, counting 2 seconds and then casting flare. ideally you wanna see your second tick of mana as your flare is halfway through casting.

after, you'll be in AF3 with around 1200 mp. this is where i differ from noctis a bit. i'll fire2 and then flare, just because for me transpose isn't back up yet if i straight flare.

[NoctisUmbra]

i'll fire2 and then flare, just because for me transpose isn't back up yet if i straight flare.

Yeah I've heard this from a few sources. I want to say a mix of spell speed and how long after your transpose you get your MP tick can effect whether you have Transpose back up after your 2nd Flare...

So in general if you get a tick of MP basically immediately after you hit Transpose, it's safe to say you can squeeze in a Fire II between the Flares to further optimize.

[NoctisUmbra]

Fire 2s? What Fire 2s?

[IceSpear]

OK thank for your help guys I think I'm starting to get it, just need to work on the beginning bit.

[Maero]

Umm not familiar,really? I have spent a great deal of time as others have testing different rotations.
I only flare after my mana is low and if you actually think there is no dps loss doing flare after transpose well just ask other blm's that have been at it for a while, you will see that their is a loss of dps indeed if casting flare after transpose.
And i do not do 2x flares i do 3x flares which is far more potent then 2x flares, and more then 3 flares as was posted is also a loss of dps.
Not trying to be rude but do some testing and see the results, test dummies is not the best way of getting numbers, it helps but some on the blm rotation post i think have tested using parsers
Not saying your beginning aoe rotation is wrong at all as others do it so as well, but again the transpose> flare i do not agree about
Really at the end of the day do what you feel is best,if a rotation works for you then by all means use it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, isn't it better to stick to a single-target rotation if there are only 2 mobs?

Another time you can use flare is at the end of your single-target rotation if you have swiftcast & convert up. Of course you only want to do this if you don't need the swiftcast & convert up later for certain DPS checks.

I wouldn't say never use Fire 2, because some tanks simply can't handle Flare spam, unfortunately. You may have to use Fire 2's in situations where the tank can't handle you generating hate as quickly as you will using Flare spam.

And this ^

[NoctisUmbra]

Umm not familiar,really? I have spent a great deal of time as others have testing different rotations.
I only flare after my mana is low and if you actually think there is no dps loss doing flare after transpose well just ask other blm's that have been at it for a while, you will see that their is a loss of dps indeed if casting flare after transpose.
And i do not do 2x flares i do 3x flares which is far more potent then 2x flares, and more then 3 flares as was posted is also a loss of dps.
Not trying to be rude but do some testing and see the results, test dummies is not the best way of getting numbers, it helps but some on the blm rotation post i think have tested using parsers
Not saying your beginning aoe rotation is wrong at all as others do it so as well, but again the transpose> flare i do not agree about
Really at the end of the day do what you feel is best,if a rotation works for you then by all means use it.

What do you do after you Transpose in your AoE rotation then? Please, do tell.

If it involves Transpose > Blizzard (III) > Fire III > Fire II spam > Flare > Transpose then I'm sorry to break it to you but the double Flare rotation is superior DPS. The only way it would dip below the Fire II rotation is if you screw it up.

When I refer to the double Flare rotation, I do not mean the opening rotation where everybody would use 2-3 Flares with access to Convert and an Ether. I'm referring to the extended rotation, where you chose to use 2 Flares between your Transposes instead of using any single target spells or Fire II.

To be honest I think this is pretty bad advice.

I'm curious... why do you think this is bad advice?

[JetBrooks]

I'm curious... why do you think this is bad advice?

It's good advice for a perfect world with perfect players. I've encountered tanks that can't hold hate during flare spam. You can ask them to try and spam flash/overpower all you want, but if they can't hold hate, they can't hold hate.

Also, you may find yourself in a situation where one mob is going to die before the others, bringing the count down to 2 mobs. In this situation, I'd rather use a Fire 2 (one mob dies) and go into my single-target rotation for optimal DPS. Scenarios are too dynamic to say that you should only do one thing at all times.

Flare spam is friggin great when you can use it, though.

[NoctisUmbra]

It's good advice for a perfect world with perfect players. I've encountered tanks that can't hold hate during flare spam. You can ask them to try and spam flash/overpower all you want, but if they can't hold hate, they can't hold hate.

Also, you may find yourself in a situation where one mob is going to die before the others, bringing the count down to 2 mobs. In this situation, I'd rather use a Fire 2 (one mob dies) and go into my single-target rotation for optimal DPS. Scenarios are too dynamic to say that you should only do one thing at all times.

I guess if you're going to nitpick for hypothetical scenarios, especially ones that are fairly uncommon like the one you mentioned, then I suppose you can come up with a reason to use Fire II - though in a scenario such as that one I'd probably just switch to my single target rotation straight away and burn own the remaining two.

As for the tanks who can't hold hate scenario, that's not an excuse to use Fire II. Not even remotely. That's effectively busy work. If you get a tank in DF that has significantly lesser gear than you, sure this will force you to hold back on DPS (provided even Quelling Strikes isn't enough to keep you safe, which... that's pushing it since it should still be possible even with a reasonable gear difference). However, if the goal here is to reduce your DPS, why keep yourself busy using a lesser skill? May as well wait longer between Flares. Same effect.

In any other scenario, if I am expected to be doing an AoE rotation as a BLM, then the tank is expected to be holding AoE hate. It has all the tools, and no excuses. No, I will not play less effectively because the tank doesn't know how to play better. As a player who plays both tanks and all DPS jobs, I will take the time to figure out with said player why they are unable to maintain hate - which shouldn't be too hard because it will end with "spam Flash/Overpower".


Haven't seen a single reason yet to actually put Fire II on my bars

[scarebearz]

I'm curious... why do you think this is bad advice?

There are very few situations where this "double flare" is of any use at all.

AoE rotations are very situational, but for most cases, mobs should not be around long enough for you to empty mp - transpose - wait and hardcast 2 flares, let alone any more.

Take Bray first and 2nd pull for example:

If the party is decent:

1st pull:

RS - Fire III - Fire II x 1 or 2 (depending on party dps) - Flare - Mega Ether - SC - Flare

2nd pull:

RS - Fire III - Fire II x 1 or 2 (depending on party dps) - Flare - Convert - SC - Flare


If party dps is low:

1st pull:

Fire III - Fire II - Fire II - RS - Fire II - Flare - Convert - (Fire II only if SCH in party) - Flare - Mega Ether - SC - Flare

2nd pull:

Fire III - Fire II - Fire II - RS - Fire II - Flare - Convert - (Fire II only if SCH in party) - Flare - Mega Ether - SC - Flare

Still situational, but something like that is what I'd recommend.