Dragoons need to be buffed...

[Exstal]

I personally don't have issues with the positioning and rotations as a DRG or Monk, as I've played both, but I still prefer playing a DRG.

I just want DRGs to have something like Monks have Mantra and INT debuff, so that they would be generally more appealing.

Dropping from the sky isn't appealing enough?

[Lemon8or]

you can have the debuff from d kick while not beein not entirely on the flank of your target, but that wont really work for HT unless I'm doin it wrong ^^

While it's true that monks have an easier time with buff/debuff application, they suffer a lot more if they're on the wrong sides. Like I mentioned above, Dragon Kick 100 vs 150 potency is a lot (a difference in the neighborhood of 300 vs 450 damage per hit non-crit unbuffed). If you hit from the wrong side with a crit buffed True Strike, it's the difference between a 700 hit and a 1k hit.
You just have to be on flank side when you hit HT button. That's when it counts your positions. I haven't played turn 7 on dragoon since my monk is way more geared but I have plenty of practice with boss turning with Titan EX. It's kinda the same thing though the window is bigger comparing Landslide cast to 2 Circles of Flames cast.
But if you want to compare passable dragoons who can't even buff up properly on Scourges, maybe you should've compared them to passable monks who can't hit from the right sides.

I just want DRGs to have something like Monks have Mantra and INT debuff, so that they would be generally more appealing.

If it's not appealing, why were there so many DRGs when the game came out? There are just plenty of bad DRGs which give DRG a bad name. Mantra? You have that too.

increase Heavy Thrust damage bonus to 30% (THE EASIEST) or decrease all JUMP abilities cooldown by 50% ( might controvercial due to pvp ) is what we need to be on par with MNKs

You want either a buff that is better than GL3 but take 1 GCD vs 9 GCD to activate or 50% CD reduction on your abilities to burst? Are you insane?

Sure dropping from the sky is cool and all, but Monks having higher DPS (unless the boss is an absolute hell for them), and being unable to support your group make DRGs seem inferior.

Like I said before, monks only have higher DPS if and only if they can keep GL3 the whole fight so I don't get why you think DRG with shorter windup should do even more damage.

[Empressia]

honestly DRG have the HIGHEST DPS when on full BURST rotation, however due to long cd of said burst full rotation and our so wonderfully coreographed but so pathetically slow telegraphed damage to the enemy, we're simply behind MNKs, so either increase Heavy Thrust damage bonus to 30% (THE EASIEST) or decrease all JUMP abilities cooldown by 50% ( might controvercial due to pvp ) is what we need to be on par with MNKs

[Jollyy5]

Dropping from the sky isn't appealing enough?

Sure dropping from the sky is cool and all, but Monks having higher DPS (unless the boss is absolute hell for them), and being able to support your group as a whole, makes DRGs seem inferior.

Also, I meant "appealing" as in an addition to a raid team, sure DRGs can have Mantra too, but it's 5% vs. 20%, which seems like a significant difference to me.

If one had to choose between taking equally skilled/geared DRG or Monk, they would be likely to choose a Monk unless there's a Bard or two, as they can potentially deal more damage, and if the fight is not very favourable for Monks which prevents them from reaching their max DPS, they still have 20% Mantra, and 10% INT debuff, which seems quite useful to me, seeing a lot of bosses tend to use magic based attacks, especially for AoE.

So: Monks: Potentially higher DPS, skills to aid the whole group. DRGs: Somewhat better burst, but lower overall DPS, single skill to aid a Bard with just a 10% damage buff.

To me the gap between seems too big.

[Eidolon]

Dragon Kick 100 vs 150 potency is a lot (a difference in the neighborhood of 300 vs 450 damage per hit non-crit unbuffed). If you hit from the wrong side with a crit buffed True Strike, it's the difference between a 700 hit and a 1k hit.

No offense, but this arguement works more for DRG than MNK. Dragoon's primary rotation involves Impulse Drive (Rear) -> Disembowel -> Chaos Thrust to get a total of 880 potency (the 30 potency/tick from Chaos Thrust if I recall correctly)

Yet if we miss the VERY FIRST HIT in our combo, Impulse Drive, not only do we lose 80 potency (More than a monk missing a flank), we can't carry through to Disembowel until we land the rear-attack. This means we have to spam Impulse Drive until we land the hit, and in some fights where the boss is spinning around, you often have to delay doing that because it's just a pain with server latency to land the proper hit.

This doesn't even include that if you were using Impulse Drive in the first place, it means it was time to update your disembowel (-10% piercing resistance), so your next hits are hitting weaker because your -own- buff most likely fell off.

Even further than that, this has the potential to delay your entire cycle - your heavy thrust might fall off if you don't play your hand right, causing another 10% loss on top of that.

[Lemon8or]

we can't carry through to Disembowel until we land the rear-attack.

You have to see the whole thing here, not just 1 skill. Sure you have to retry Impulse Drive but that is just 1 hit you have to get into position. Once Impulse is fired off, you're done. Comparing to a boss that spin like a yoyo, a monk would lose on Dragon Kick, Twin Snake and Snap Punch or Bootshine, True Strike and Demolish. I'm not saying Monk doesn't have it better than Dragoon regarding the positional stuffs. I'm saying these facts balance itself out. You guys have a shorter wind-up, mandatory positional moves but lower ceiling compared to Monks with much longer wind-up, non-mandatory positional moves but a bit higher ceiling. The difference isn't even big enough to say hey bring Monk instead of Dragoon cause they do way more DPS. No, that's not the case. And in some cases, the DPS difference is already made up by having a single bard in the party. Monk + Bard is gonna do the same as Dragoon + Bard. Just because the OP disregards that aspect of balance doesn't mean it's not thought out already.

If one had to choose between taking equally skilled/geared DRG or Monk, they would be likely to choose a Monk unless there's a Bard or two, as they can potentially deal more damage, and if the fight is not very favourable for Monks which prevents them from reaching their max DPS

What raid group does NOT have at least one Bard? And as you said "potentially" and "if the fight is not very favourable for monks", that's the trade off. You either do really great in one fight or passable for others. Most Monks will suck compared to Dragoons in primals fights where lots of disconnect happens.

So: Monks: Potentially higher DPS, skills to aid the whole group. DRGs: Somewhat better burst, but lower overall DPS, single skill to aid a Bard with just a 10% damage buff.

To me the gap between seems too big.

The key word is "potentially". And as explained, the extra DPS bard could do should be counted as DRG DPS since without a DRG, that would not be possible to get. So MNK + BRD = DRG + BRD assuming same skills levels and gears.
Good thing the devs don't see it the same way you do.

[BlackThought]

"Man I sure wish Dragoon had more utility."

"LOL, but you have this awesome completely unrelated aesthetic thing! What more do YOU WANT?!! YARGLE BARLGE."

[Eidolon]

Monk + Bard is gonna do the same as Dragoon + Bard. Just because the OP disregards that aspect of balance doesn't mean it's not thought out already.

Now that I can agree with. :3 Though I gotta say, most people don't care about group DPS so much as they care about singular DPS. I know my static holds me to a high standard to maintain some of the best numbers. When our monk gets his i110/i115 weapon instead of i100 weapon, I feel a bit anxious for how they'll look at my numbers, heh.

[ChaozK]

honestly DRG have the HIGHEST DPS when on full BURST rotation, however due to long cd of said burst full rotation and our so wonderfully coreographed but so pathetically slow telegraphed damage to the enemy, we're simply behind MNKs, so either increase Heavy Thrust damage bonus to 30% (THE EASIEST) or decrease all JUMP abilities cooldown by 50% ( might controvercial due to pvp ) is what we need to be on par with MNKs

30% to heavy thrust would be op, everyone would stack DRGs.
DRGs are in a very healthy spot dps wise at the moment, they are not supposed to be as high as Monk, just as BLMs arent supposed to be as high SMNs (which i see a lot of BLMs asking for but thats a different topic). As you said DRGs have very high burst, why would you ever bring a MNK when their sustained dmg was only the same as DRGs, yet DRGs would burst harder? Burst classes like DRG, BLM and BRD are always supposed to have lower sustained dps then the actual sustained dps classes, MNK and SMN.

Now if one thing might be odd, its that MNK+BRD is apparently better than DRG+BRD, despite the piercing debuff. I think MNK+DRG+BRD, should be preferable over MNK+MNK+BRD.

[Jollyy5]

As you said DRGs have very high burst, why would you ever bring a MNK when their sustained dmg was only the same as DRGs, yet DRGs would burst harder.

They would still probably take a Monk, since from what I've seen, Monks don't lose to DRGs burst wise -that- much, and they still have their useful support skills to consider, and even when burst is needed, it's seldom during a time when Monks have already lost their GL stacks, a good example being Ifrit's nails, or Rafflesia's middle bulbs.

As for the whole "wind up time" thing, it takes DRGs 5 skills to get back into rotation if it's dropped: HT > ID > Dis > CT > Phl, and we are back in the game, buff and DoTs are up again... (Continues on next post -->)