Dragoons need to be buffed...

[Taleon]

It would open up options when they missed, and more reason to correct their own positions prior to trying and firing off ID and HT.

Right now, I see far too many Drgs in general not bothering with trying to reapply if they miss, instead of just dropping out something to keep the rest of their rotation alive still. Phl for example, skipping it and moving it back into the rotation at point in which they are able.
To me, this is just a Drg being lazy, and why the class in general, gets a bad rep.

Small changes like what they did with Monk in rear attacks, give players more reason to follow through, and maximize themselves.

[Riichi]

Thats not how the math works though. When you miss your impulse drive that means you cant use your disembowel as planned next. Your rotation changes and because of that all the times on your buffs/debuffs and dots change, increasing the time it takes you to do your actual strong skills like full thrust or chaos thrust in your rotation, resulting in a higher loss in dps then just the missed potency of the actual positional attack. When a MNK misses his dragon kick you can still do twin snakes/true strike next in your rotation as if nothing happened, so its really "just" a potency loss for MNKs while in DRGs case its not.

I'll let you in on an ancient Dragoon secret on Heavy Thrust. Ready? If you miss....cast it again...
I've taken the liberty of constructing a nice, visual mathematical representation for you so you can hopefully understand it.
Here's your ideal combo without buffs/weaving, since that wouldn't matter anyways. Underneath that will be a combo with a missed HT at the start with the same amount of GCD's used. (Filler TT at the end of first for equal GCD use)

HT + HT+ ID + DB +CT+ PHB+TT + VT +FT+ HT +TT + VT +FT
170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330+150 = 3070 potency
100+170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330 = 3020 potency

So you missed your HT. Big whoop. Do it again. If a DRG misses a positional, they lose potency. If a MNK misses a positional, they lose potency as well. The only difference is MNK shifts stances. However, a MNK changing stances doesn't mean they finish their "combo" with a high potency or powerful skill, making the basis of that comparison incredibly weak.

[Jollyy5]

I always try to re-apply HT and ID if I miss, but I admit I sometimes give it up if the target is spinning like a spinning top due to tank running in circles or otherwise without an end.

[ChaozK]

HT + HT+ ID + DB +CT+ PHB+TT + VT +FT+ HT +TT + VT +FT
170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330+150 = 3070 potency
100+170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330 = 3020 potency

Now let me show you how that rotation should actually look like
HT+ID+DB+CT+PB+TT+VT+FT+HT+TT+VT+FT+PB
170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330+320 = 3240
Compared to
HT+HT+ID+DB+CT+PB+TT+VT+FT+HT+TT+VT+FT
100+170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330+170+150+200+330 = 3020

No reason to use your weakest move next. The more time you spent using weak moves, the less time you are using your strong ones.
I am flaberghasted that this seems to be such a hard concept for some people to understand.

Edit: EMX did a more researched calculation on this but on average, a missed positional seems to amount to roughly 140ish potency on DRG iirc, depending on what and where you miss and how it affects your optimal rotation.

[Lemon8or]

HT+ID+DB+CT+PB+TT+VT+FT+HT+TT+VT+FT+PB

Actually, if you want to use rotation, here:
HT-ID-Dis-CT-Ph-TT-VT-FT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-ID-Dis-CT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-TT-VT-FT
Sure, it would seem that DRG would lose 230 potency (+100-330 Math is hard) over the duration of this rotation, but wait there's more. If you continue with a FT while the optimal rotation goes to HT, you actually only lose 70 potency. The point is how much you lose also depends on where in the rotation you end it.
DRG: mandatory position, missed positional on 1 attack results in very varied, higher potency loss on average, only have 5 skills to hit in a 24 GCD rotations.
MNK: non-mandatory position, missed positional on 1 attack results in lower potency loss on average, have to worry about that 24 times in a 24 GCD rotations.

[mythicrose]

This thread sure turned in to a pissing contest between dragoon vs monks positionals. Both need to hit positional requirements to make the most of their class. Dragoons have less to worry about on a per move basis over monks for positionals, but can be thrown off the ideal rotation when one misses. Monks get the benefit of their combos and buffs/debuffs keep going even if they miss a positional. However, as a monk has more overall positional requirements, they must pay more overall attention to where they are so they get the positional potency power.

For many fights, it's not freaking hard unless the mob is constantly in motion. Both dragoon and monk can literally sit at the very dege of the target's hit box circle for minimal flank-to-rear action. It's only when bosses are actually moving (being positioned by tank, moved by a move like chariot wheel, or spinning around to cast a fireball at someone) that positionals can get tricky for both classes.

Please for the love of Halone stop the pissing contest.

[ChaozK]

Actually, if you want to use rotation, here:
HT-ID-Dis-CT-Ph-TT-VT-FT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-ID-Dis-CT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-TT-VT-FT
Sure, it would seem that DRG would lose 230 potency (+100-330 Math is hard) over the duration of this rotation, but wait there's more. If you continue with a FT while the optimal rotation goes to HT, you actually only lose 70 potency. The point is how much you lose also depends on where in the rotation you end it.

I see where you are coming from but its a bit more complex than that, always resulting in a higher potency loss than 70. How much you lose depends on where you end the rotation this is true. In the optimal rotation in the example for 13 hits you would lose out on a PB for 320 versus a missed HT for 100, resulting in 220 potency lost. As you say depending on where you end the rotation this loss might be lower. Thats why Riichi came to a loss of only 50 potency because he compared a missed HT 100 potency to a TT for 150, although its pretty clear that you already lose 70 just from the missed positional attack alone (HT from flank 170 pot vs HT not from flank 100).

Now if you want the average potency loss you have to compare the missed HT to the average potency of all DRG attacks used in the rotation which is exactly 258.75 (170+180+220+500+320+150+200+330/8).

Everytime you are doing a missed positional for 100 potency, you are not doing 258.75, so a loss of 158.75 potency on average. Technically its a bit higher than that since we are not acounting fos buffs yet.
Hope i could clear it up a bit without making it too complicated.

[Lemon8or]

Hope i could clear it up a bit without making it too complicated.

It's not too complicated to see where you're coming from, especially considering the average potency of the very long rotation is 250. And if we're accounting buff and off-GCD, might as well account those for monk. If you miss a positional, you lose potency as so do monks and there is no argument that you'll make up for it by doing some magic rotations.
That's not the point I'm trying to make. I'm just saying I believe DRG and MNK are balanced with each other with several trade-offs that are mentioned already.

I sometimes give it up if the target is spinning like a spinning top due to tank running in circles or otherwise without an end.

Time to get a new tank.

[ChaozK]

I'm just saying I believe DRG and MNK are balanced with each other with several trade-offs that are mentioned already.

This is my opinion as well and i agree 100% with that
Just felt that there was some need for further explanation where that dps loss other players were talking about was coming from. A mnk would lose out on just as much due to the higher number of postionals. Also considering that the same potency is worth a lot more on MNK due to greased lightning.

[Jollyy5]

This thread sure turned in to a pissing contest between dragoon vs monks positionals.

That it did, but as I stated before, I don't much care about the positioning differences, both can be learned with some effort.

My point from the very beginning was that I feel like a Monk played right can deal more damage while still having more support value than a Dragoon played right, thus making it a better choice for raid groups.

People keep saying that DRGs have better burst and can move around more freely, but I've never seen a Monk have much trouble taking down adds or bulbs in boss fights, and Shoulder Tackle seems to work just as well, due to it's short cooldown. Sure , it has a stun effect, which is not always desired, but so does Spineshatter Dive, and Dragonfire Dive has a 3 minute cooldown.