Dragoons need to be buffed...

[Jollyy5]

Meanwhile it takes Monks 9 skills to get back into rotation, which is 4 more than DRGs, but if we take their increasing skill speed into account, I'd assume it would translate into taking 2 skills longer than it does for DRGs, which would roughly translate into 4 seconds, which in my opinion is not that much.

And for the record, if a Monk has to drop their rotation and GL during a fight, most likely DRGs will have to drop the rotation as well, and then both of them need to build up again.

And again, Monks can keep their leading place in DPS race, but I STILL think that their additional support skills put them too far above DRGs, and while the boost to Bard DPS could be counted as DRG's, it might still not be as high as what a Monk can do alone, and even if the damage between DRGs and Monks would be close to equal, Monks STILL have more utility even with a Bard around.

[Lemon8or]

Meanwhile it takes Monks 9 skills to get back into rotation, which is 4 more than DRGs, but if we take their increasing skill speed into account, I'd assume it would translate into taking 2 skills longer than it does for DRGs, which would roughly translate into 4 seconds, which in my opinion is not that much.

You're overestimating Greased Lightning. Each stack is only worth 5% so a 2.5s GCD will become 2.375s after GL1 and 2.25s after GL2. A 9 skills would take 2.5*3+2.375*3+2.25*3=21.375s compared to DRG 5 skills according to you 2.5*5=12.5s (Monk hasn't even have time to put up Touch of Death and losing out on Dragon Kick debuff on first rotation while Dragoon put up all buffs and all DOTs ). It's a difference of almost 9 seconds which is a lot. So, every time a disconnect happens, monk suffer from 9 seconds of building up to maximum capacity.
As far as support skills, as been discussed several times:
Mantra: you also have it, if the group needs that 15% you're most likely doing something wrong.
INT debuff: I'll give you this one.
Silence: Useless against bosses but turn 1, 2 and 9; has to be in the right form which as you guessed it nerf our DPS if we have to wait; PLD and BRD do it better; TP costly-as-hell to use on single target sustained.
OIP: Useless against anything that matters.
A good monk will be fought over, just like a good dragoon. A bad monk, people can care less about, just like a bad dragoon.

from what I've seen, Monks don't lose to DRGs burst wise -that- much

Most likely cause you're comparing yourself to a more skilled/geared Monk.

[Jollyy5]

Well, one thing I'd like to add is that when trying to get back into rotation, if a DRG misses HT, getting back to rotation will take 6 skills every miss adding one. If missing with Impulse Drive, the amount of skills needed increases as well, but in addition, it messes up the ideal rotation, and same goes to HT while in middle of a rotation, and the only way to get back into the ideal rotation in which a DoT/debuff/buff is applied right before/after the old one expires, is to start the whole 24 skill rotation over.

So after all these many, many replies to this thread, (A lot more than what I expected.), I feel I understand the pros and cons of DRGs and Monks somewhat better, so I would be content if DRGs had something similar to Monk's INT reduction debuff, thus making it feel a little less like being there only for Bards.

[Lemon8or]

Well, one thing I'd like to add is that when trying to get back into rotation, if a DRG misses HT, getting back to rotation will take 6 skills every miss adding one. If missing with Disembowel, the amount of skills needed increases as well, but in addition, it messes up the ideal rotation

Firstly, how do you miss Disembowel? That skill only requires Impulse Drive to hit from behind. Of course missing the mandatory positional moves would make you deviate from the ideal rotation but think of monk's ideal rotation as being able to hit from all correct sides and you'll see they suffer from much lower potency skills. Secondly, if you're not able to apply Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive correctly, maybe that's why you're losing to Monks that work for their positional moves.
There's the ideal rotation and then there's the adaptation which separate great players from passable players.

being there only for Bards.

But that's not the only thing you're there for. You're there for the burst damage and less variant damage in fights with lots of disconnect. You're there for the mobility. I wish I have Elusive Jump on Monk instead of having to run everywhere like in turn 5 phase 4. Shoulder Tackle should never have a Stun tied to it. Sure the Int debuff is nice but how often do you feel like oh man we would have survived it with a monk? Aetheric Profusion? Nope. Atomic Ray? Nope. Circle of Flames? They don't even hit that hard.

[whiskeybravo]

so I would be content if DRGs had something similar to Monk's INT reduction debuff

There's not really another stat to debuff. PLD lowers STR, MNK lowers INT, Supervirus lowers all (although it can't have 100% uptime).. Wars have a straight damage reduction that's probably not going to be duplicated.

I agree with Nate that Shoulder tackle should have the stun removed, though in fairness, I do still use SSD on the dreads on t5 as a gap closer. Unless someone failed to run away or lethargy/heavy was missed the thing is usually dead quick enough for the stun not to make a difference.

[Jollyy5]

Yes, I meant Impulse Drive, sorry, it's fixed.

And I feel that more DPS is lost when a DRG misses an ID or HT in middle of the rotation, causing the flow to pretty much stop until the beginning of a new rotation, than when a Monk fails to hit the correct spot once or twice in middle of their rotation.

[Taleon]

As I stated earlier, the only thing I find strange, is how people relate a Dragoon to mobility, when a Monk has in truth more mobility in the long run. True, a Monk is limited to being at a set range in order to use ST, but Jump is not really mobility for a Dragoon, it is an attack. Dragon Fire and Shatter are our Mobility ( yes you can count Ellusive, but that is not to target ) and on a much longer CD then Monk's ST. Perhaps it is just the option to have more then one.

Dragoon is fine DPS wise, it is a set back to reapply ID or HT, but not the death of a dps encounter. Same goes with Monk and applying outside of designated flank/rear for maximizing DPS.
Both have situations where it may or will happen, both classes survive nicely in recovery.

As to the stat debuff, as pointed out by whiskey, really there is not another stat that is "needed" to be debuffed. I would be more interested in a forced crit effect like Boot Shine, before I would be in a stat debuff. Vorpal force crit when both HT and Dis are applied to target for example.
But that may push the intended DPS of the Dragoon a bit higher then the Devs want in current content.

[Lemon8or]

forced crit effect like Boot Shine

You meant like Life surge? Forced crit on any skills you want, even the 330 potency Full Thrust? Its 90s CD is a bit high but I think DRGs have that covered. Bootshine is 150 potency, should only be used every 6 GCDs while Vorpal is 200 potency combo'd.

[Taleon]

oh I know we have Life Surge, and yeah a bit long CD, but for what it is worth it.
Did not say leave Vorpal combo'ed at it's current potency, yes would be a good deal of tweaking to make it fit in. Main aim, as a further reason to keep positional attacks connecting. Much like the change that finally brought Monks to both Flank and Rear, instead of the previous just sitting on the Flank of a target ^^

Again, something to bring a little flavor to our boring filler rotation of TT.

[Lemon8or]

That'd be very interesting indeed seeing how you can use Vorpal every 4 or 8 GCDs depending on where they are in the rotation but it'd need to be adjusted with potency. Though, people would only complain more that they miss positional moves. -.-"