Dragoons need to be buffed...

[YanderePrincess]

Ring of Thorns done in public makes the DRG lose his wyrm mail.

What's with the poledancing hate?

[Jollyy5]

What's with the poledancing hate?

Because it's flashy, it's loud, and it can be spammed to no end = Can annoy people.

[Logo]

What's with the poledancing hate?

because its very very annoying soundwise.

[YanderePrincess]

because its very very annoying soundwise.

Then the proper request would be for the sound to be changed or removed.

[Daweism]

Reduce the cooldown on Dragon Fire dive!

[Pwnznewbz]

The main issue with all of the arguments regarding monk vs drg (and, yes, I just read 17 pages of back and forth) is that everyone presumes dps classes shouldn't be relatively equal. I disagree and believe the dps of all dd classes should be relatively equal. In my raid group's T6 and 7 completions, I (drg) am usually ~10% less than our monk. I am usually above, but only slightly our bard. The smn is anywhere from #2-4 on dps depending on the attempt (still new to the job). I think this is the exception, though, so we could come up with a formula like this:

mnk/smn > blm > drg > brd
+10% > +5% > 0 > -5 to 10%

There are, of course, outliers but I think we could all agree this is generally how it currently works. Why does everyone just accept that? Why shouldn't a bard/monk/drg/blm/smn be within a reasonable deviated number of each other? Is 10% the right amount? Or, should it be more like 5%? 1%? Yes, every job has different skills and different jobs (in more than name) but at the end we are still 5 dps classes.

As a drg, I get 2 more stuns (that aren't used on bosses) and usually get to do the limit break so that our monk can keep up sustained dps. Great! We have t6 and 7 on farm. My dps is still ~10% lower than the monk. This discussion isn't about the difficulty of playing the jobs. It's about the numbers. In essence, an equally geared and skilled monk will always do more dps than a geared and skilled drg. A drg definitely adds 10% to a bard. But, what if that bard is less skilled or geared than the drg? So, forget about the buffs or debuffs. Why don't the dps classes do nearly equivalent dps?

I've read a bit about the high burst of drgs. If that is true, then you should see the distribution of dps taken over the longer fight balance out to be near to the monk. That isn't happening. Yes, the burst is helpful in certain situations (middle seed in t6, for instance) but that burst should attribute to a higher dps over the longer fight; And, it's not.

Forget about mandatory positioning. Forget about the 10% buff for bards. Forget about the 2 stuns that drgs can't use in raids. Forget about melee/magic defense, which really doesn't matter since drgs shouldn't be getting hit. Looking at just the numbers, the distribution, and look at your own examples; how often is the drg really above or near the monk in dps totals? For that matter, how often is it near smn or blm?

There is a reason that drgs and high end raid groups consider the drg crap... it's based on numbers.

[Lemon8or]

Why shouldn't a bard/monk/drg/blm/smn be within a reasonable deviated number of each other?

Because they require different level of skills to play to maximum potential. Shouldn't the jobs that have wider variance in DPS have a higher ceiling? Think of jobs that have wider bell curve vs a narrower bell curve. Shouldn't the one with wider curve has higher maximum?
For monks, they have to keep: Greased Lightning 3, Dragon Kick, Twin Snake, Demolish, Touch of Death on target to deal maximum damage.
For summoners, they have to keep: Bio, Bio 2, Miasma, Miasma 2, Shadow Flare and pet control.
For Dragoons: Heavy Thrust, Disembowel, Chaos Thrust, Phlebotomize.

[A_Magical_Unicorn_Rider]

The main issue with all of the arguments regarding monk vs drg (and, yes, I just read 17 pages of back and forth) is that everyone presumes dps classes shouldn't be relatively equal. I disagree and believe the dps of all dd classes should be relatively equal. In my raid group's T6 and 7 completions, I (drg) am usually ~10% less than our monk. I am usually above, but only slightly our bard. The smn is anywhere from #2-4 on dps depending on the attempt (still new to the job). I think this is the exception, though, so we could come up with a formula like this:

mnk/smn > blm > drg > brd
+10% > +5% > 0 > -5 to 10%

There are, of course, outliers but I think we could all agree this is generally how it currently works. Why does everyone just accept that? Why shouldn't a bard/monk/drg/blm/smn be within a reasonable deviated number of each other? Is 10% the right amount? Or, should it be more like 5%? 1%? Yes, every job has different skills and different jobs (in more than name) but at the end we are still 5 dps classes.

As a drg, I get 2 more stuns (that aren't used on bosses) and usually get to do the limit break so that our monk can keep up sustained dps. Great! We have t6 and 7 on farm. My dps is still ~10% lower than the monk. This discussion isn't about the difficulty of playing the jobs. It's about the numbers. In essence, an equally geared and skilled monk will always do more dps than a geared and skilled drg. A drg definitely adds 10% to a bard. But, what if that bard is less skilled or geared than the drg? So, forget about the buffs or debuffs. Why don't the dps classes do nearly equivalent dps?

I've read a bit about the high burst of drgs. If that is true, then you should see the distribution of dps taken over the longer fight balance out to be near to the monk. That isn't happening. Yes, the burst is helpful in certain situations (middle seed in t6, for instance) but that burst should attribute to a higher dps over the longer fight; And, it's not.

Forget about mandatory positioning. Forget about the 10% buff for bards. Forget about the 2 stuns that drgs can't use in raids. Forget about melee/magic defense, which really doesn't matter since drgs shouldn't be getting hit. Looking at just the numbers, the distribution, and look at your own examples; how often is the drg really above or near the monk in dps totals? For that matter, how often is it near smn or blm?

There is a reason that drgs and high end raid groups consider the drg crap... it's based on numbers.

Because of Monk's natural Skill Speed boost. They may not spike as high as Dragoon can, but little numbers add up to a whole lot more over time than a few spikes here and there over the same amount of time. Hell, even as Monk I'm seeing crits of 8XX.

[Lewena]

snip

You are basically asking the DRG to be better than the MNK un every aspect. Except for cloning both classes. Why would a raid take a MNK while a DRG would have the same overall DPS by himself while:
- a better burst allows easier management of some mechanics such as killing adds or pushing annoying phase quickier?
- pushing the numbers of another party member?
- having better aoes?

Btw your own number shows that the DRG is pretty near to the MNK if you add the extra DPS you allow for one single BRD. And you still have better burst. Please look to the raid numbers and not your individual one.

[Mardel]

You are basically asking the DRG to be better than the MNK un every aspect. Except for cloning both classes. Why would a raid take a MNK while a DRG would have the same overall DPS by himself while:
- a better burst allows easier management of some mechanics such as killing adds or pushing annoying phase quickier?
- pushing the numbers of another party member?
- having better aoes?

Btw your own number shows that the DRG is pretty near to the MNK if you add the extra DPS you allow for one single BRD. And you still have better burst. Please look to the raid numbers and not your individual one.

Well tbh I'm not sure of drg has what I could consider "better burst". More like we blow our wad earlier than monk. A monk still have perfect balance up their sleeve if any one would get "burst king" title wouldn't that go to bard with a barrage up their sleeve? Everytime I see a fight I always see BRD for the first little bit way up there in damage, usually top. Also in terms of just burning something down brd > smn ~ drg ? Seems about right if we are just blowing all GCD to kill something quickly.

The final reason why drg should get buff is if musketeer is BLUNT damage and is a dps class. If this is the case there will be like almost 0 reason to bring a drg lol, unless you plan to do something like.... Drg, mnk, brd, musketeer. In which case would be like... why? When you can bring a smn who will do more damage anyways! Also, consider the dagger class as a slashing class too. A good warrior will keep the slashing debuff up as well, meaning another reason not to bring a drg along if you have 2 tanks.

Granted outside t6/7 my group runs 1 tank meaning we only bring a pld to tank our stuff. However, the norm is pld/war thus if monk > drg and musketeer <3 monk this means we will see something like... these comps.

pld,war,mnk,gun,dagger, brd/cast, healers for 2 tanks

pld, mnk, gun, dagger, brd, smn, healers for 1 tank

Hell my drg is i108 and if musketeer was blunt and dagger slashing... I wouldn't bring myself along to make the best comp XD (either way I'm probably making drg the third class I play once dagger class is live)