Time limit to re-enter dungeons

[Zenaku]

wtf 5min? i hope SE is joking the dungeon would get old within 2-4hours of me doing it.

[Kiara]

Hi All,

While the 5 Minute (basically non-existent) restriction to re-enter Dungeon might be super convenient and helpful to cater to anyone playing the game, there is one aspect that FF XIV is suffering from as a result of this type of convenience:

* Lack of Feeling of Genuine, Major Accomplishment.

By this I mean the feeling you get for accomplishing something that made you get up and shout in elation and relief over defeating / overcoming / gaining something that was rare.

The last batch of 20 Mid-Level NMs are a perfect example of what Richard and some others are talking about:

* After the initial buzz of maybe 2 or 3 days (if that), no one really cares about those 20 NMs any more.

The Drops don't feel special at all. There is no great sense of accomplishment for getting a drop from an NM that respawns within 1 minute to 5 minutes of being killed (with a decent drop rate).

Now, on the other hand, it *is* very convenient and allowed pretty much everyone that put a little bit of effort into it, to gain their very own Unique / Untradeable NM Weapon / Armor. So that's great for everyone just wanting to get an item to use (which has also hurt the crafters for items in that range (since many people with means can just hunt the NM and get a better item)).

I'm not asking for extremes. I think FF XI's 72 Hour Window (or camping HNMs on a 21 - 24 Hour Respawn Timer) may have been "fun" for people in a certain situation in their life, but nowadays it feels too extreme and silly.

But there's no denying that getting your Kirin's Osode, O. Kote, Empress Hairpin, etc. (Original drop rates, early years) really felt like an accomplishment. Beating Dynamis-Xarcabard for the first time (pre-nerf, early years) felt like a great accomplishment. Beating Chains of Promathea (pre-nerf) was fun.

On the other hand, I'm happy for the convenience of FF XIV, but pretty much every NM fight (even the original Dodore, Great Buffalo, etc.) feels like a "Oh cool. Yay."-type of moment, instead of a...

"HELL YAH! WOO HOO!!!!!!! We did it!!!"-type of moment.

Who wouldn't want to have a great sense of accomplishment when playing FF 14?

Right now, beating up Bardi or Queen Bollette, or Downy Dunstan, feels like a "Eh. No drop. Look for the ~1 minute repop." Rinse and repeat.

When you get a drop from the Mid-Level NMs, you feel mildly happy and leave to do other stuff.

So what's the "ideal re-entry / cooldown time"? I think everyone has their own personal limit, but 5 minutes before retrying seems really short.

Betel is right that this caters to Hardcore more (since they have the dedication to repeat constantly until it's done), but I think what Richard and others are saying is that it's good to have content that can last longer than what we have now.

Ultimately, we'll have to see what the Dungeons are like, and maybe the 5 Minute Cooldown is there for a reason (like people disconnecting / crashing and wanting a chance to get back in quickly; or the drop rates are super rare with lots of confusing / alternate paths, so we have to figure it out repeatedly), but if not, this may be similar to the 20 Mid-Level NMs we got in terms of feeling of accomplishment. We'll see.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Hi All,

While the 5 Minute (basically non-existent) restriction to re-enter Dungeon might be super convenient and helpful to cater to anyone playing the game, there is one aspect that FF XIV is suffering from as a result of this type of convenience:

* Lack of Feeling of Genuine, Major Accomplishment.

By this I mean the feeling you get for accomplishing something that made you get up and shout in elation and relief over defeating / overcoming / gaining something that was rare.

The last batch of 20 Mid-Level NMs are a perfect example of what Richard and some others are talking about:

* After the initial buzz of maybe... 2 or 3 days (if that), no one really cares about those 20 NMs any more.

The Drops don't feel special at all. There is no great sense of accomplishment for getting a drop from an NM that respawns within 1 minute to 5 minutes of being killed (with a decent drop rate).

Now, on the other hand, it *is* very convenient and allowed pretty much everyone that put a little bit of effort into it, gain their very own Unique / Untradeable NM Weapon / Armor. So that's great for everyone just wanting to get an item to use (which has also hurt the crafters for items in that range (since many people with means can just hunt the NM and get a better item)).

I'm not asking for extremes. I think FF XI's 72 Hour Window (or camping HNMs on a 21 - 24 Hour Respawn Timer) may have been "fun" for people in a certain situation in their life, but nowadays it feels too extreme and silly.

But there's no denying that getting your Kirin's Osode, O. Kote, Empress Hairpin, etc. (Original drop rates, early years) really felt like an accomplishment. Beating Dynamis-Xarcabard for the first time (pre-nerf, early years) felt like a great accomplishment. Beating Chains of Promathea (pre-nerf) was fun.

On the other hand, I'm happy for the convenience of FF XIV, but pretty much every NM fight (even the original Dodore, Great Buffalo, etc.) feels like a "Oh cool. Yay."-type of moment, instead of a...

"HELL YAH! WOO HOO!!!!!!! We did it!!!"-type of moment.

Who wouldn't want to have a great sense of accomplishment when playing FF 14?

Right now, beating up Bardi or Queen Bollette, or Downy Dunstan, feels like a "Eh. No drop. Look for the 1 minute repop." Rinse and repeat.

When you get a drop from the Mid-Level NMs, you feel mildly happy and leave to do other stuff.

So what's the "ideal re-entry / cooldown time"? I think everyone has their own personal limit, but 5 minutes before retrying seems really short.

Betel is right that this caters to Hardcore more (since they have the dedication to repeat constantly until it's done), but I think what Richard and others are saying is that it's good to have content that can last longer than what we have now.

Mid-level NMs weren't made for your r50 CON. They WERE created for the large population of players that didn't level past r25/r30 because there was nothing to do. And THESE players DO consider it an accomplishment. All the proof you need is riddled on youtube by many "MIDCORE" Linkshells who post videos of them defeating these NMs.

[Kiara]

Mid-level NMs weren't made for your r50 CON. They WERE created for the large population of players that didn't level past r25/r30 because there was nothing to do. And THESE players DO consider it an accomplishment. All the proof you need is riddled on youtube by many "MIDCORE" Linkshells who post videos of them defeating these NMs.

Hi Durti,

I'm presenting both sides of the case here.

The bottom line with those 20 Mid-Level NMs were that for many of the FF 14 population (since many were well over Rank 30), the sense of accomplishment was diminished.

I've also helped groups of ~Rank 25 - 34s try and get their R30 NM Gear over the past few months (on my own R30 Class), and for those people? They thanked me and felt happy, but it wasn't anything special.

As soon as they realized that even though we didn't get the drop, but we can retry in a few minutes and try again until we got it, they could all spare ~30 minutes to 1 hour (i.e., repeatedly try those NMs a few times in our group) and eventually get their drop and be done.

(and then go back to doing Guildleves again.)

At this point, all we can do is wait and see how the final implementation will turn out.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Hi Durti,

I'm presenting both sides of the case here.

The bottom line with those 20 Mid-Level NMs were that for many of the FF 14 population (since many were well over Rank 30), the sense of accomplishment was diminished.

I've also helped groups of ~Rank 25 - 34s try and get their R30 NM Gear over the past few months (on my own R30 Class), and for those people? They thanked me and felt happy, but it wasn't anything special.

As soon as they realized that even though we didn't get the drop, but we can retry in a few minutes and try again until we got it, they could all spare ~30 minutes to 1 hour (i.e., repeatedly try those NMs a few times in our group) and eventually get their drop and be done.

(and then go back to doing Guildleves again.)

At this point, all we can do is wait and see how the final implementation will turn out.

The issue with your example is not the timer, its the fact that you are running mid-level content on a r50 class. This has nothing to do with the current argument.

What the other side of the fence is saying is: Their has to be a 36 hour timer on the dungeons to make it an accomplishment. I'm sorry, this is bullshit. It doesn't matter if I accomplish it in one weekend or 1 month, the ACCOMPLISHMENT is the EXACT same. The only thing adding a timer to the dungeons is going to accomplish is the FORCED dragging out of content.

The basic argument is "Put a timer on it to make the content last longer." This is artificial, archaic, and just down right dull.

[Totobi]

What the other side of the fence is saying is: Their has to be a 36 hour timer on the dungeons to make it an accomplishment. I'm sorry, this is bullshit. It doesn't matter if I accomplish it in one weekend or 1 month, the ACCOMPLISHMENT is the EXACT same. The only thing adding a timer to the dungeons is going to accomplish is the FORCED dragging out of content.

The basic argument is "Put a timer on it to make the content last longer." This is artificial, archaic, and just down right dull.

QFT. Couldn't say it better myself.

[Zkieve]

The issue with your example is not the timer, its the fact that you are running mid-level content on a r50 class. This has nothing to do with the current argument.

What the other side of the fence is saying is: Their has to be a 36 hour timer on the dungeons to make it an accomplishment. I'm sorry, this is bullshit. It doesn't matter if I accomplish it in one weekend or 1 month, the ACCOMPLISHMENT is the EXACT same. The only thing adding a timer to the dungeons is going to accomplish is the FORCED dragging out of content.

The basic argument is "Put a timer on it to make the content last longer." This is artificial, archaic, and just down right dull.

I tough what the other side of the fence was saying is that they will be left with nothing to do (that is assuming is something it can be done with a degree of difficulty at lv 50) way to fast.In the end i think eighter way game needs a lot more content in general before they can start charging .

Once and only once they fix the basics.

[Kiara]

The issue with your example is not the timer, its the fact that you are running mid-level content on a r50 class. This has nothing to do with the current argument.

What the other side of the fence is saying is: Their has to be a 36 hour timer on the dungeons to make it an accomplishment. I'm sorry, this is bullshit. It doesn't matter if I accomplish it in one weekend or 1 month, the ACCOMPLISHMENT is the EXACT same. The only thing adding a timer to the dungeons is going to accomplish is the FORCED dragging out of content.

The basic argument is "Put a timer on it to make the content last longer." This is artificial, archaic, and just down right dull.

Hi Durti,

Huh? Did you read my 2nd post? (I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but here's what I said):

I've also helped groups of ~Rank 25 - 34s try and get their R30 NM Gear over the past few months (on my own R30 Class), and for those people? They thanked me and felt happy, but it wasn't anything special.

As soon as they realized that even though we didn't get the drop, but we can retry in a few minutes and try again until we got it, they could all spare ~30 minutes to 1 hour (i.e., repeatedly try those NMs a few times in our group) and eventually get their drop and be done.

(and then go back to doing Guildleves again.)

And I agree with you: I'm *not* asking for a 36 Hour Timer either. (I think that's ridiculous.)

Ultimately, is "5 minutes" (almost non-existent) ideal? is it 1 hour? I think everyone has their internal limit for what an "acceptable" cooldown is for repeating content.

I think the freedom of just "Go and do [XYZ] whenever you want, however you want" is admirable. But I think that also works best only if we have enough content to suffice, right?

One can argue that, "Well, it's the hardcores' fault for rushing through the content! Your loss! LOL!" But at the same time, a balanced game should have enough engaging content to cater to a spectrum of players right?

The same open-mindedness for "total freedom in a game to do / repeat whatever you want, whenever you want" should apply for granting enough enjoyable experience for not only 1 market segment (casual only).

There is something to be said for Rarity of something; to have to earn something whether its through skills only (super tactical, strategic fight that requires many players repeated tries to figure out (GREAT!)), or also rarity of occurrence. If every single eventual NM / HNM in this game is on a 1 Minute Cooldown / Respawn (and will always be up), so all players can just fight them over and over, does that diminish the experience?

I think even right now with the R60 NMs (like Uraeus, Great Buffalo), you know they're going to be there every ~20 minutes (their in-game window), and it's great that everyone can get their drops, but they certainly feel like a common monster wandering the world. When you go gathering in Coerthas, seeing Uraeus up is no big deal.

Freedom is great; and maybe Rarity (Time) no longer needs to be a factor, but I can sense a loss even with a 20 minute timer on something like Uraeus or Great Buffalo (you see it all the time, and it's no longer special / needed).

[Raze]

My initial reaction was "grrr damn it I'm going to smash through this in a weekend".

Then I thought "Wow, when those people got all upset that DC's might cost them a dungeon run they got the same way, and this just cured that."

So, my approach is going to be:
Wait
See
Judge

Keep hopes low and every cool feature is a bonus!

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

My initial reaction was "grrr damn it I'm going to smash through this in a weekend".

Then I thought "Wow, when those people got all upset that DC's might cost them a dungeon run they got the same way, and this just cured that."

So, my approach is going to be:
Wait
See
Judge

Keep hopes low and every cool feature is a bonus!

Thank you! This is how a rational adult reacts. There may be trepidation, or concern, but at least THEY WAIT UNTIL THEY KNOW FOR SURE to start complaining.