WTF WHMs?

[Bigpurpleharness]

Bard

I never need Ballad unless the other DD are doing pitiful damage, so stuff isn't dying in under 10 holies. That being said, holy is worth more than 20% of a Bard's damage, as a rule. I still prefer requiem and have no MP issues though.

[AngelicSence]

I have an example for single enemy situation,
Roulette got AK and fresh 50 under-geared tank, tank didn't dodge clone aoe from the single giant,
DPS were fine, in this case, holy stun the giant twice and the giant was killed by dps. not bad. ^^

I think we should all know by now when to use what spell effectively. It's not like we can't use holy on a single target, it has high potency + stun effect, but also mana consuming.
There is really rare situation where you have to use holy on singular enemy. By the time you see AoE is coming, it's late to bother with holy. I would just walk away out of AoE zone and Aero 2, Aero + virus + stone2 combo him. Also.. It's suprize me, lv50 who can't dodge AoE.. It's very sad.. I still understand if player lagging etc, but sigh

[ariaandkia]

Ahhhh cool! thanks for the addition



No, I didn't forget. This is concerning single target dps and neither stun nor slow will matter because you have at least 3 other people beating on the target and negating the effect. Besides, how do you quantify a factor like that? We were crunching numbers based on a controlled scenario, status effects don't fit in.

Stun does not get removed by attacks. Sleep does.

And might I return to opening post:

WTF is it with most of you White Mages spamming Holy when there is just three mobs or less in the lv.50 dungeons? Yes, I have seen White Mages use Holy on just two mobs and even a single mob.

It's this way most of the time when I queue for Duty Finder as Bard. It's like you see a Bard in the group and you are all like "Ooh, Mana Battery!". To me you are just wasting mana.

When I see a White Mages start spamming Holy, I don't use Mage's Ballad till after the fight. At the next fight I turn it off. If they are still halfway or less on mana when we start the next fight, then oh well. They should of not spammed Holy on just two mobs. If the next fight is a boss fight, then I do leave ballad up a bit after the start of the boss fight if White Mage still needs some mana.

No specifying that it was a question of DPS.

===

As for the aoe thiing. You can usually tell when the aoe is coming. That is why sometimes I cast a repose and have it hit at the same time the skill starts (instant cancel) or throw out a holy and have it hit at the same time thus instant cancelling

[kujowaltz]

Firstly, I never said attacking ended the status effects of heavy nor stun, I was merely pointing out that with at least 3 people beating on target, a status effect such as heavy or stun is irrelevant to dps and shouldn't be factored into calculating dps. I meant negating the effect...on dps.

If you refer to the comment resulting in this topic, the assumption was made that holy was a better DAMAGE spell than stone 2. I pointed out that may not be the case depending on the situation, resulting in more constructive brainstorming, to which you felt the need to point out a non-constructive, non-existent flaw.

Secondly, topics evolve. Please don't refer me to the original post when my comment on WHM dps had nothing to do with it. I've already read the original post and commented on it as such.

Thirdly, i'm an iLvl 90 BLM, I'm aware of sleep's limitations.

Fourthly, that's great you stun with holy so effectively, I wish more WHM did that!

[Jim_Berry]

You know, my problem is this:

As a WHM, I get yelled at for a lack of dps if I don't do more than two Holys.

As a BRD, when WHMs spam Holy, it's not a problem to give them Ballad even with Battle Voice. The way I see it, their Stun and aoe damage is more valuable than just my aoe. I'll gladly take a loss of damage considering the WHM is picking it up and I helping them do so.

This game is getting frustrating; you're yelled at if you do something or don't do something. And not to come at you negative, Whatley, but songs ARE part of what BRD is for. So many BRDs want to be high on the damage charts but ignore their responsibilty. I hear NO BRDs complain about using Requiem. Why? Because it does not lower their own damage.

If I see a WHM spamming Holy and the PLD spamming Flash, I WILL put up Ballad.
If I see a WAR spamming Overpower and the DRG spamming his aoe move, I WILL put up Paeon.

Again, I get trash-talked because I'm killing my damage, but I don't care.

[subteraneanbird]

Ideally, if you see us using Holy, you'd Requiem since that actually helps way more than Ballad.

[Alistaire]

I know I have other songs to use. I don't cater to just the healers. Depending on the other dps I will either use Foe or Paeon, usually for the big pulls and the bosses. It's just when I see the healer's mp at less than half in the middle of a fight I think "Oh crap! The healer needs mana!" and will want to switch to Ballad. Then of course with the spamming of Holy I feel the need to keep just Ballad up since the spell uses a lot of mp quickly. But now I know I don't need to do that anymore.

Cool, was thinking for a second this thread was either a troll or someone who would come back in and vehemently defend their original position despite everything everyone was saying. Good to see someone open to learning, doesn't happen often enough.

In general knowing the abilities of the people you party with goes a long way towards knowing when/where to use your own.

[ariaandkia]

Ideally, if you see us using Holy, you'd Requiem since that actually helps way more than Ballad.

Or Requiem when the holy starts and ballad when it stops.

Then again, usually you don't see enough holies to make requiem worth it.

Firstly, I never said attacking ended the status effects of heavy nor stun, I was merely pointing out that with at least 3 people beating on target, a status effect such as heavy or stun is irrelevant to dps and shouldn't be factored into calculating dps. I meant negating the effect...on dps.

If you refer to the comment resulting in this topic, the assumption was made that holy was a better DAMAGE spell than stone 2. I pointed out that may not be the case depending on the situation, resulting in more constructive brainstorming, to which you felt the need to point out a non-constructive, non-existent flaw.

Secondly, topics evolve. Please don't refer me to the original post when my comment on WHM dps had nothing to do with it. I've already read the original post and commented on it as such.

Thirdly, i'm an iLvl 90 BLM, I'm aware of sleep's limitations.

Fourthly, that's great you stun with holy so effectively, I wish more WHM did that!

You should still consider in stun and such as factors. If say melee DPS had to keep avoiding aoes from enemies, they won't do as much damage. If an enemy throws out a debuff that stops the DPS from really dps'ing (pacification, stun, paralyze, etc). that also lowers dps. In addition, stuns stops repositioning. This can help the DPS get their full position bonus on an enemy (especially since some enemies get spun randomly for various reasons). I've literally stunned an enemy because I saw that the lancer couldn't get their heavy thrust in on an enemy. Stunned it, they got their buff, after a few seconds, stunned it again so that they could put on the debuff.

And there are many other ways that certain status effects can indirectly help DPS. Example: Heavy on a fast running enemy running away from your DPS (for whatever reason). Slowing it down could mean the difference between failed DPS skills and successful DPS skills.

Similar to the arguments behind buffing a person or debuffing an enemy instead of healing that person as a healer. Do I reduce their damage taken by about 10% or do I heal them? I'm not adding to my healing, but i'm reducing the amount I have to heal which ends up being just as useful.

I see things as this: Even if it doesn't have a direct effect, it can have an indirect effect.

[subteraneanbird]

Holy from a CS WHM is 220 ePot. For reference, Flare is 260.

Requiem is always worth it.

[ariaandkia]

Holy from a CS WHM is 220 ePot. For reference, Flare is 260.

Requiem is always worth it.

And what happens when the holy hits before requiem activates and the WHM was only casting one? Just some stuff to consider. There is a reason that when giving advice I rarely speak in definite terms but in most probable occurrence terms.

Especially if the WHM and Archer are the only ones doing elemental damage (assuming the fire skill counts as fire elemental)

My point being that there is almost always an exception, some situation where something that happens almost every time happens to not happen. I especially make note of this due to my own experiences where things that "should not have happened" happened.