WTF WHMs?

[kujowaltz]

You should still consider in stun and such as factors. ....

That is a very valid crowd control point that should be considered....but not when talking about cold hard DPS. Binding targets for AoE or sleeping a running target from a monk is not DPS, but you are right, it does affect it (but that is obvious). Let me refocus you on my initial suggestion/comment on the topic; it was suggested that holy was a better "damage" spell than stone 2. I said in a single target instance, stone 2 is actually more effective - the math is there and so are my parameters. Considering a WHM, acting as a DPS member of the party, on a single target, stone 2 is more effective.

[kujowaltz]

Any DPS theorycraft never takes effects into account. You will never hear any BLM talk about fitting a sleep spell into a burn phase - you will never hear a monk talk about weaving stun or slow into their combo because it may help out the party's overall DPS. Because in order to actually quantify the affects on party DPS, you need to consider party stats, positions, personal rotations, where each DPS member is in their rotation at the time of infliction, etc.) and contrast both cases.

You can easily make the same argument that if you stop caring about status effects and focus on stone2 (which is calculated to be a more effective DPS spell), you will kill the mob sooner and that means the tank will also take less damage and decrease your need to heal.

Effects are situational matters reserved for specific fights/scenarios. Their effect on CC is definite, but difficult to quantify for party DPS (which wasn't considered). Please try to understand the scope of a post before faulting it.

[ariaandkia]

That is a very valid crowd control point that should be considered....but not when talking about cold hard DPS. Binding targets for AoE or sleeping a running target from a monk is not DPS, but you are right, it does affect it (but that is obvious). Let me refocus you on my initial suggestion/comment on the topic; it was suggested that holy was a better "damage" spell than stone 2. I said in a single target instance, stone 2 is actually more effective - the math is there and so are my parameters. Considering a WHM, acting as a DPS member of the party, on a single target, stone 2 is more effective.

Maybe I'm odd, but I don't see Cold hard DPS in that way. I think of it like this. Lancer uses piercing resistance debuff on enemy with 3 bards. The bards now have higher damage. I count that extra damage as the Lancer's damage, not as the bards' damage.

[kujowaltz]

Lancer uses piercing resistance debuff on enemy with 3 bards. The bards now have higher damage.

That is an instance of a noteworthy increase to party DPS but a random stun doesn't nearly have the same affect on party DPS as a debuff.

You open burn phases with debuffs and cooldowns (this is where you set up your party, like you mentioned). Then you burn. And in that instance, if a WHM were to theoretically burn for some reason, they should spam stone 2 instead of holy because over a reasonable period of time, you get more out of it. If you start worrying about helping the tank you suddenly shift to a healer mind frame again. You can't do two things optimally at once. If you want to support the tank and do some decent dps, holy. If the tank and party will be fine, and you can burn, use stone 2 for optimal dps.

[subteraneanbird]

Holy from a CS WHM is 220 ePot. For reference, Flare is 260.

Requiem is always worth it.

[ariaandkia]

Holy from a CS WHM is 220 ePot. For reference, Flare is 260.

Requiem is always worth it.

And what happens when the holy hits before requiem activates and the WHM was only casting one? Just some stuff to consider. There is a reason that when giving advice I rarely speak in definite terms but in most probable occurrence terms.

Especially if the WHM and Archer are the only ones doing elemental damage (assuming the fire skill counts as fire elemental)

My point being that there is almost always an exception, some situation where something that happens almost every time happens to not happen. I especially make note of this due to my own experiences where things that "should not have happened" happened.

[AngelicSence]

Holy from a CS WHM is 220 ePot. For reference, Flare is 260.

Requiem is always worth it.

With all the respect, flare actually has 440+ potency with astral fire lll.
They can also spam flare x5 times and repeat in few sec. Not to mention, but they also have infinite mana and getting buff in next update.

Healers are healers not dpser, but in FF, holy was always par with flare or 2nd strongest spell. Sadly.. 40 potency was taken away for healers not healing reason.. If only everyone kept party members alive while spamming holy. We would see 240 potency spell today.

[subteraneanbird]

Then that WHM is probably not playing well or you're not planning Requiem out as efficiently as possible?

I dunno what you want from me here.

[Ashkendor]

I dunno why this would make you mad as DPS. As a tank, I don't mind some Holy spam as long as I don't end up dead. The stun on it is freaking beautiful for interrupting annoying abilities, and on a geared WHM it does some impressive damage. Most of them have a pretty good handle on mana management too (Shroud of Saints is some amazing regen). Now if a WHM is spamming Holy and letting the tank die in the process or running themselves completely out of mana somehow, then yeah that's a problem.

[Wataruryu]

Heh Heh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHpPKgi-niI