Do you think the devs intended multi-flare blm?

[mero-ix]

I dunno how anyone fits that many flares into a pack of mobs. I barely have time to do 3 flares in Brayflox and when I do get that last one off most of the mobs are already dead. For such a short fight, it seems rather extravagant to use potions when you can just pop Raging Strikes and cast a couple Fire IIs, double Flare, and be done with it.

I feel quite frustrated with BLM to be honest and I'm excited to see how they buff them. I can only do around 300-310 dps in 3 mins on a target dummy with BLM (which also depends on procs) while I can easily get 360 with DRG. I feel like I have a lot more control over my dps output on DRG than I do on BLM because DRG feels like it's based a lot more on player skill whereas with BLM anyone can Fire III > Fire > etc > Bliz III > Thunder. It's just a matter of managing dps while moving after that, but obviously that's not an issue with a target dummy. Having dps output rely so heavily on rng (procs) feels too much out of my control. Do not like. :c

[Fynlar]

If they didn't, they wouldn't have given Flare as low of a minimum cost as it has.

[Urielparadox]

On topic of the tank,
1) if you have a lbm who specializes(or smn) in aoe damage why are you stopping multi target hate generation after 2 flashes, instead of generating plenty of hate before starting a combo? You should never be pulling less then 5 mobs(unless their aren't 5) or your wasting a blm damage. and your combo does not compensate in terms of dot, nearly enough as it would to ask a blm to slow down.

2) why is it strange for you to just now see blm using flairs? they should have always been using it, don't get mad at dps. Why aren't you using flight or fight + circle of scorn instead of the single target combo; since you have 5+ mobs on you anyway? it's just simple logic error on your end.

3)make sure the black mage is using QS if not then go ahead and correct the mage. However you are not without error on your end.

snip

I have major issues with this and mixed feelings. This is not what the devs intended and we already got hurt pretty annoyingly once because of players ABUSING the way umbral ice and tics work. Yes they said in their live letter ages ago addressing the issue that it was exploiting the system(but not a punishable offence) If this becomes as wide spread as the old double flair abuse(or even just like this thread helping bring attention to it) I expect another huge nerf/hit to black mage that will undo a lot of the incoming updates, or I expect the updates to remove this possibility by putting flair on a recast timer. Which would mean no more legitimate double flair. If se decides to change their mind and not count this as abuse then they will have to improve fire II and nerf flairs damage(at least base). which I don't want either. However SE has to work fixing this into their schedule with fixing blm which means just longer postponement on us getting made more useful.

[Karnyboy]

I think SE intended BLM to deal damage, I don't see the issue here.

[Kenji1134]

Here's a simple test for you guys to do.
Take a (roughly equally geared) BLM, SMN, and BRD. Have the BRD play Foe's as available, and parse for 6 minutes, enough time to use Raging Strikes 3 times, plus all other CD's 2+ times.
Then take a DRG, MNK, and BRD, have the BRD play Paeon, and parse for 6 minutes, which is made possible by the bard.
Finally, take your BRD and DRG, have the DRG maintain Disembowel, and have the BRD parse for 6 minutes.

So all in all, this will take 20-25 minutes.

These will be the maximum ST dps values for our dps classes over a idealized and prolonged period.
Realistically, DRG and MNK wont go past 3-4 minutes without a break. And BLM/SMN wont get nearly as much uptime on Foe's due to healer's needs.

So if BLM is pretty much dead last on this test, which I am pretty sure it will be... though the BRD wont be too much higher, then the class needs a buff. The dps POTENTIAL of each class needs to be at least somewhat similar.

I have no issue with melee dps being ~10-15% better on a dummy style fight than ranged dps. I dont really have an issue with SMN being at about the same level as BLM, provided BLM got something to address the movement dps loss to bring that aspect of the class up to SMN's level.

I do think that in an idealized ST situation, BRD should do the least dps, since it the ONLY mechanics that remotely affect its dps are ones that force you to stop attacking, or force you to look away.

As for BLM's aoe advantage... Um, lets see how many fights involve mobs being grouped up for aoe?
T5 2 times, initial adds with no major mechanics, and allowing the melees to focus on "the big snake" during the snake phase.
T4... which we now farm like nobody's business, could probably get it done with 4 MNK's now... Im sure someone already has done an "all melee" T4 for kicks.

And... though I might be wrong... I think thats it.
There's not a whole lot that plays towards BLM strengths. There are a number of fights that DO have multiple mobs at a distance, which is great for SMN and BRD though.

Sadly encounter design is not something that we can control. There is a separate group that makes the fights, and puts in various mechanics that hinder melee, or ranged, or just casters. The most glaring issue with BLM is that we have the fewest ways to handle the mechanics that are aimed at hindering us, which is the first thing that needs to be addressed... followed by BLM's place in the dps hierarchy.

PS:
I am also aware that MNK can be severally shafted by mechanics that would force you to disconnect for more than 6 seconds, as it may, depending on where the MNK is in their rotation, not be enough time to reapply GL.
Fortunately, there are rather few of these mechanics, and they tend to occur at sufficiently long intervals such that every other such long disconnect can be rectified using Perfect Balance.

[NyneAlexander]

Here's a simple test for you guys to do.
Take a BLM, SMN, and BRD. Have the BRD play Foe's as available, and parse for 6 minutes, enough time to use Raging Strikes 3 times.
Then take a DRG, MNK, and BRD, have the BRD play Paeon, and parse for 6 minutes, which is made possible by the bard.
Finally, take your BRD and DRG, have the DRG maintain Disembowel, and have the BRD parse for 6 minutes.

So all in all, this will take 20-25 minutes.

These will be the maximum ST dps values for our dps classes over a idealized and prolonged period.
Realistically, DRG and MNK wont go past 3-4 minutes without a break. And BLM/SMN wont get nearly as much uptime on Foe's due to healer's needs.

I don't think that 6 minutes is a realistic time frame for a couple reasons:

1.) the majority of endgame fights where dps will make or break it are almost twice as long, if not longer and
2.) the longer the fight, the larger the gap between top and bottom dps.

[Kenji1134]

I don't think that 6 minutes is a realistic time frame for a couple reasons:

1.) the majority of endgame fights where dps will make or break it are almost twice as long, if not longer and
2.) the longer the fight, the larger the gap between top and bottom dps.

I say 6 minutes for a couple simple reasons.

1. Its a nice number for 2 and 3 minute CD's, so the next decent timeframe would be 9, and the next ideal timeframe would be 12 minutes.
2. Its true that most of the important fights now take closer to 10-14 minutes... But then the issue becomes constructing a situation to sustain MNK, DRG, and BRD for the entire 12 minute parse WITHOUT breaks, which these long fights tend to have.
3. And then the other fun part, finding enough "equally" geared and skilled... highly skilled... people for this test, AND getting them to go at it for 12 minutes, without messing up or going braindead. =)

That said, this kind of test is really for 2 types of people. Theorycrafters, and the Combat QA/Dev team. We're the former, so if you can find the people to do it, all on the same server, same group, same data collection methods and cross-checking the data... By all means go to town.

But really, this "should" be SE's job, not ours.

PS.
I am having flashbacks to RIFT, where I was a Warrior main, and the entire theorycrafter community did spec and rotation checking for the warrior dev... Then he'd buff or nerf... mostly nerf... each spec and subclass until there weren't any outliers. Not "balance", there were a lot of specs that simply sucked. But of the small handful of builds that worked, they were all "fairly" balanced, mostly thanks to us, the players.

[Marxam]

If Vivi from FFIX can do it I don't see why it isn't intended.

[Nayto]

"Combos" weren't intended in Capcom's Street Fighter(tm)... and they went with it.
this flare spam thing seems to keep the BLMs busy with figuring out what's viable rotations and what not.

It's called Quelling Strikes, and not enough people have it/have the common sense to use it/plain don't care.

Quelling has a long CD though... think by the time you reach the second set of mobs it'll still be down.