Exploiting Shouldn't Be A Debate (a request for clarity)

[Alistaire]

I have to disagree on the wintrading.

Wintrade isnt used to play with another group, its standing still and take a beating then switch to be the one doing the beating.

And it DOES effect others, people are forced into fights against players/groups with maxed out pvp rank/gear which decreases the chance of winning quite a bit.

If wintraders didnt get an upperhand when im fighting them in pvp then i wouldnt care, unfortuenly they do.

Same thing with Dzmael speedruns. It DOES affect (not effect) others, these people (on aoe dps jobs) have an unfair advantage that lets them hit 50 sooner, get geared up sooner, there's even marginally good gil/hour in speedrunning DD! Let's all cry exploit at that too huh?

[Varos]

Seriously? All you debating whether it's an exploit or not? This is not what this thread was made for. It is a REQUEST for the devs/community managers/mods/WHOMEVER IS IN CHARGE to clarify whether this is in fact a bad thing or not, for many of these issues. Take your "it's this way, it's not this way" elsewhere, please. I'd kill for some clarity than to watch yet another thread degrade into a fistfight again.

[Devils_Lawyer]

meh /10char

[Alistaire]

Seriously? All you debating whether it's an exploit or not? This is not what this thread was made for. It is a REQUEST for the devs/community managers/mods/WHOMEVER IS IN CHARGE to clarify whether this is in fact a bad thing or not, for many of these issues. Take your "it's this way, it's not this way" elsewhere, please. I'd kill for some clarity than to watch yet another thread degrade into a fistfight again.

I'll yield to that; good point. Any issue where players are that divided on whether or not it's a legal thing to do, should get some kind of comment from SE.

[Yshnal]

While I agree with the clarification part, I disagree with the concept of "we should know if it's legal so that everyone can be able to do it". Really, if you feel uncomfortable about doing something because you think that it cheapens your reward or what you accomplish, or simply because you feel that there might be something wrong in it (as to qualify it as an exploit), then don't do it regardless of whatever other players do, or if it's allowed or not.

Take for instance the mass pulls and mob locking that happened on some duties. The devs said that it was alright, yet I never did that because in my own opinion it was just cheating the game. The same can be said about PvP. It doesn't matter if win trading is legal here, I would never do it because I don't see the point of faking a fight, notwithstanding the rewards.

That, however, doesn't mean that I'm ok with people doing it, specially as those same rewards end affecting and cheapening the PvP as a whole. But instead of aiming for an equal ground of everyone cheating, I would prefer to focus my efforts on making SE consider fixing it ASAP and punishing (yes, punishing, I don't want a competitive ground like the PvP filled with cheaters) those that abused the system, as other MMOs do. Otherwise just remove the PvP, because if everyone is going to cheat it won't serve any purpose beyond wasting our time and dev resources for nothing, and we'll be better without it. That's the game I want to pay and play, not Final Cheating XIV, where the one that uses more shortcuts and outplays more mechanics wins

TL;DR: No matter if it's allowed or not. Doing something that you initially felt that was wrong is... well, wrong. Clarification is still needed tho, to see where do the devs stand on these kind of issues.

[Alistaire]

Yeah that's a whole different kind of thing. You play the game how you want...when you're either solo or with like-minded people. The moment you enter something like DF right from the start there's gotta be some kind of compromise, mostly from common sense between what everyone wants and what everyone is capable of.

[Nictuswolf]

Personally, I think it depends on the exploit.

For me, things like botting need to be destroyed quickly.

Though in some cases I think botting is ok, like crafting. I mean a bot and macro chain are the same thing basically one just works more efficiently than the other.

Botting for gathering and leveling up I see as bad.

I did bot in games like Asheron's call with Eltank, but I was always at the keyboard and never went afk.

It is a fine line between what should and shouldn't be allowed. Personally for me, if it doesn't really change the outcome of the economy and it is incredibly tedious then let us bot it.

If it hurts the economy or others then ban it.


The Lock out was already address I believe, they have fixed some dungeons where it was stupid easy like WP. But really what is the difference between that and pulling everything and AoE spamming it down, the difference is time consumed. We are talking about minutes, not hours. What is the issue with it being alittle faster.

If you couldn't speedrun Brayflox or other dungeons how long do you think people would play? I would say not very long.

50 Myth per run of Brayflox is tedious, it is fun for about the first 3-4 runs a day but when you need to run it 260 times for your Animus alone that is just stupid. That doesn't count all the Myth you need to spend on gear upgrades, that is the Animus alone.

If you make this game one giant grindfest you will drive people away, and then you can complain about how the game is dying and it's all SE's fault because they made the game too grindy.

[Varos]

I will never do it, honestly, but I'm asked ALL the time at least, concerning wintrading. As it stands I'd like to honestly answer them than to give some half-baked "I really don't know, you take the risks if you feel like it."

On my feelings with the wintrading, it can potentially hurt things in the long run, as I expect Frontlines to be a whole 'nother sort of beast. Just consider that all those wintraders will have a clear advantage when people will be getting into the new PVP mode which MAY or may not be popular come 2.3 - a lot of my friends are concerned with this, while though I am not, I can sort of understand how they feel about the whole situation. I've seen the difference between somebody completely without pvp gear or even the lower-tier versus the rank 30 full set, and that was a huge gap. The new gear set is very plausible to cause an even wider gap yet.

To reiterate....devs pls. Give us a damn answer. It's not like you're NOT noticing these posts. They're ridiculous now.

[Nicobo]

....However, since 2.0 launched, we have had issues like speed running dungeons...

I agree that Dev could judge such situation asap as similar as how they handled T2 enrage.

However, I don't undersatnd why OP put speedrun in this post,
some ppl complaining they think DF should not have speedrun but no one complaining speedrun is an exploit. ^^;

[Azurymber]

I agree that Dev could judge such situation asap as similar as how they handled T2 enrage.

However, I don't undersatnd why OP put speedrun in this post,
some ppl complaining they think DF should not have speedrun but no one complaining speedrun is an exploit. ^^;

At one point in the past it was unclear as to whether or not speedruns were ok (for a little while). Then i guess devs said it was against the spirit, and they also implemented measures preventing it. When I say speedruns i'm referring to the mass-pull lockouts (old WP) and not brayflox hard speedruns where you actually have to kill things.