Dungeon Finder

[Seif]

We have 2 dungeons soon. Two I think it's way too early to worry about how people find basically the only optional content in the entire game. Maybe when there are 20ish working dungeons around the game when people will actually need something like that.

[OJtheLIONKing]

I disagree with the OP on this, and on every single one of the things that was mentioned as a bad idea. There seems to be a culture from FFXI that any increase of playability, usability, readability or convenience is automatically a bad idea. I could (and have, in previous posts) gone on for ages about why this isn't a healthy attitude to have when developing a game that's desperately trying to attract new users after a disastrous launch caused by pandering to the people who most complain about the changes that have been made. However, I want to try and keep this reply shorter than an essay.

A Dungeon Finder system does have problems, yes, but they don't exist in games because the developers felt like screwing up balance. As an anecdotal example, when I played WoW along with some other friends in FFXI, we almost never did dungeons until the dungeon finder was implemented, and did them daily or more often afterwards. It's a great solution to people who want to do PUGs, but can't or don't want to spend hours finding groups for them as in FFXI. WoW's implementation also solves the problem with class favoritism that plagued FFXI for years and made finding PUGs a nightmare. Put another way, no one will force you to use a dungeon finder, but it can allow people who might not otherwise do this content to do it, and making content more accessible is the stated goal of the dev team.

That's not to say there aren't problems with it, but there are corrective steps that can be taken. Off the top of my head, a rating system for players that play nice as opposed to being jerks and leaving mid-fight that can result in them being placed higher in the queue in the future is one idea. This would incentivize good behavior while not completely excluding a paying customer from the content if they had a bad night, drunk-played, or what have you.

Lastly, I'm for a teleport simply because the content itself is currently time limited. Especially considering how long it takes to get from point A to point B without teleporting in this game, spending 30-60+ minutes to get to a dungeon that's less than an hour long is a phenomenal waste of time. It also gets annoying if you do the content more than every once in a while, having to walk to it every damned time.

[Murugan]

I don't see how wanting to maintain a little sociability in MMO's is an attack on convenience. It is a sad trend both in MMO's and among many younger people today though to avoid being sociable in favor of limited/minimalistic contact with others. The game needs a working system to allow PEOPLE to easily find other PEOPLE to play content with, it does not need to remove the need for people to talk to each other and organize with one another by automatically matching you with 5 other people (especially from other servers as some new MMO's do) that you will likely never see again or even remember their name.

It's sad really, hopefully your generation will wake up one day and realize what you are missing when you continually choose to limit your interpersonal relations with other real human beings. If some of the nerdiest anti-social MMO gamers could manage it ten years ago, I'm sure you all could too... it might actually be a good lesson for you in how real life society operates.

[OJtheLIONKing]

I don't see how wanting to maintain a little sociability in MMO's is an attack on convenience. It is a sad trend both in MMO's and among many younger people today though to avoid being sociable in favor of limited/minimalistic contact with others. The game needs a working system to allow PEOPLE to easily find other PEOPLE to play content with, it does not need to remove the need for people to talk to each other and organize with one another by automatically matching you with 5 other people (especially from other servers as some new MMO's do) that you will likely never see again or even remember their name.

It's sad really, hopefully your generation will wake up one day and realize what you are missing when you continually choose to limit your interpersonal relations with other real human beings. If some of the nerdiest anti-social MMO gamers could manage it ten years ago, I'm sure you all could too... it might actually be a good lesson for you in how real life society operates.

First, I can do without the condescension to "my generation". Do you even know how old I am? I've been playing games for over 20 years, I'm not an impatient 13 year old who needs to get talked down to by the grown ups about how great the good ol' days were (they weren't, and nostalgia is an evil thing). I have a job, I have friends, I get out, and that is EXACTLY the reason I want these changes--I want to have fun in this game in a timeframe that doesn't invade time spent with my friends or my responsibilities. If the game tries to make me choose, the game is at fault because you should never put a game before real life.

I would, in fact, contend that it's just the opposite. The game forcing you to spend hours putting together a group, getting to the target area, and possibly having nothing to show for it because you didn't get through by the time limit all exclude those of us with busy schedules who are still gamers in a way that other games don't. Games, especially these days with gamers who are older and have families, should accommodate those who don't have 8 hours to spend on a single xp party but still want to actually play the content they're paying good money for.

Now I'm not opposed to making the dungeon finder single server, but it can also lead to some issues. For instance, if you're still learning your class (which you will be doing the mid-level dungeon) and you don't do well the first time, you'll get blacklisted by them even after you learn how to play. This is part of why I liked the dungeon finder in WoW, I could take on a new role for my paladin (playing tank when I'm used to DPS, for instance) and not worry about how idiotic I look to people I'll need to deal with later. Then when you learn your class and the dungeons, you run with your guild.

[Murugan]

First, I can do without the condescension to "my generation". Do you even know how old I am? I've been playing games for over 20 years, I'm not an impatient 13 year old who needs to get talked down to by the grown ups about how great the good ol' days were (they weren't, and nostalgia is an evil thing). I have a job, I have friends, I get out, and that is EXACTLY the reason I want these changes--I want to have fun in this game in a timeframe that doesn't invade time spent with my friends or my responsibilities. If the game tries to make me choose, the game is at fault because you should never put a game before real life.

I would, in fact, contend that it's just the opposite. The game forcing you to spend hours putting together a group, getting to the target area, and possibly having nothing to show for it because you didn't get through by the time limit all exclude those of us with busy schedules who are still gamers in a way that other games don't. Games, especially these days with gamers who are older and have families, should accommodate those who don't have 8 hours to spend on a single xp party but still want to actually play the content they're paying good money for.

Now I'm not opposed to making the dungeon finder single server, but it can also lead to some issues. For instance, if you're still learning your class (which you will be doing the mid-level dungeon) and you don't do well the first time, you'll get blacklisted by them even after you learn how to play. This is part of why I liked the dungeon finder in WoW, I could take on a new role for my paladin (playing tank when I'm used to DPS, for instance) and not worry about how idiotic I look to people I'll need to deal with later. Then when you learn your class and the dungeons, you run with your guild.

It has absolutely nothing to do with time. A proper party search function (which really only needs a party seek function/seeking for party list right now as well as a better comment box with auto translate functionality) would work just as fast a dungeon finder without the need to have the server randomly put people together.

Also accountability does not automatically mean someone is "blacklisted" for making a mistake while playing. In all my time playing FFXI I never once did this to someone, and I always formed parties myself if I could not find one quickly (I still do). People are fully capable of understanding others limitations in pick up groups, if they truly can't deal with that then they will play exclusively in statics anyways.

With automatic dungeon finders instead of getting help to learn how to play your class in a party you are more likely to have the people simply abandon you there and requeue to try to find a group with someone who does know how to play (unless the content is so broken that it doesn't matter how you play). They'll still tell their linkshellmates about you, and they'll still laugh at you only maybe you can hide behind the chance that you'll never run into each other again. But I don't think that that sounds like a very good solution to your problem though.

You should always care about how you look to others, you are sharing in their time as well. Your time is so important to you that you want to place all these limitations on the game, well chances are other people value their time just as much and don't want it wasted by you so that you can "not worry about how idiotic you look" before you play with your linkshell. Next time you don't know how to play your class in a certain situation ask for some pointers, 9 times out of 10 in a pick up group people will be more than willing to help you out. Especially in a game like FFXIV where most people play multiple jobs.

[OJtheLIONKing]

First, I have to get ready for work soon, but I'll post once more.

It has absolutely nothing to do with time. A proper party search function (which really only needs a party seek function/seeking for party list right now as well as a better comment box with auto translate functionality) would work just as fast a dungeon finder without the need to have the server randomly put people together.

Not really. What you're proposing basically exists in FFXI already, which is exactly the game I was referring to. No doubt, it SHOULD be implemented in XIV because they shouldn't force people to use a dungeon finder, the game needs a better party search anyway, and it'll help those who avoid a dungeon finder or just want a group for something else stand out from the crowd. However, it is inadequate for putting parties together in a timely fashion. In ideal conditions, it took me 15-20 minutes to put together a party and get to the destination in FFXI, which is close to the max time you would have to wait in a dungeon finder with a similar queue time to WoW. Having to find members like that is a large reason why FFXI encouraged such unhealthy super long single session xp parties, as well. Lastly, although it's not as bad as FFXI, there is class elitism in this game and it will grow when they change the battle system. I don't think anyone who ever played a dragoon or a puppetmaster in FFXI before a year or two ago would want a return to that party system.

Also accountability does not automatically mean someone is "blacklisted" for making a mistake while playing. In all my time playing FFXI I never once did this to someone, and I always formed parties myself if I could not find one quickly (I still do). People are fully capable of understanding others limitations in pick up groups, if they truly can't deal with that then they will play exclusively in statics anyways.

I didn't do it either, but it doesn't mean it doesn't occur. In any case, this also applies to dungeon finder pugs. I am perfectly able to form a group of people I know or a static if a dungeon finder exists, and indeed I think most would prefer to run entirely with people they know, but the reason pugs exists is because this isn't always possible.

With automatic dungeon finders instead of getting help to learn how to play your class in a party you are more likely to have the people simply abandon you there and requeue to try to find a group with someone who does know how to play (unless the content is so broken that it doesn't matter how you play). They'll still tell their linkshellmates about you, and they'll still laugh at you only maybe you can hide behind the chance that you'll never run into each other again. But I don't think that that sounds like a very good solution to your problem though.

I don't want to make assumptions, but have you played WoW? How recently? Although problems do exist (particularly after they launched the recent troll dungeons), most people are willing to help someone who's new or going through their first time. There are griefers and jerks, but despite the preconceptions people have about WoW players, random dungeon groups are surprisingly friendly. The WoW team foresaw the potential for the jerk problem, put a fairly long cooldown timer on randoms, and it works--most people are willing to work with their group rather than have to wait 15 minutes then another wait on top of that to requeue. What you say just isn't really true.

To paraphrase Yoshi-P, there should be as much time spent actually doing stuff in the game as possible, as opposed to preparing to do stuff or moving towards stuff. I want to play the game, not spend an hour putting together a party to walk to a dungeon to spend 30 minutes actually doing the thing I want to do.

[Synfrag]

For the tl;dr: No to Dungeon Finder w/ Teleport. Targeted recruit group sure.

For instance, if you're still learning your class (which you will be doing the mid-level dungeon) and you don't do well the first time, you'll get blacklisted by them even after you learn how to play. This is part of why I liked the dungeon finder in WoW, I could take on a new role for my paladin (playing tank when I'm used to DPS, for instance) and not worry about how idiotic I look to people I'll need to deal with later. Then when you learn your class and the dungeons, you run with your guild.

I agree with what you said about having priorities above the game. But this is exactly the problem with a LFD. Getting someone who half asses the content really screws with everyone else in the game. If you can't play your role don't join pugs, find others who are learning too and work together to get better. The way you put it is basically saying "I don't care about anyone but myself".

As far as I'm concerned, they can add a LFD feature but I'll boot anyone from the group that acts like a fool. Teleporting to the instance is asinine. WoW is the only game that does that as far as I know and we all know WoW is an utterly cheapened experience of an MMO. Now should it take an hour to get to an instance, no. 15 minutes sure, it will give you a chance to determine if someone is an asshat or not. SE will indeed stay away from instanced content as much as possible though so I don't think we will have to worry too much.

I'm not trying to be a dick here but if you want something you can log on, run an instance, get some drops and be done in an hour, go back to WoW. FFXIV or any FF game for that matter has a loyal following that is familiar with a truly challenging (and rewarding) scope of gameplay. SE is aiming to make it more casual but I can guarantee the true rewards will come to those with perseverance.

I work 50+, have many friends, have dates with bottles of tequila... frequently >.< and M-F quick and rewarding things would be great! But on the weekends I want some epic adventure not grinding an instance for the umpteenth time. If it becomes a game of simply running instances it is no better than the cookie cutter MMOs out there already. My 2c on the matter.

[ellohwell]

For the tl;dr: No to Dungeon Finder w/ Teleport. Targeted recruit group sure.



I agree with what you said about having priorities above the game. But this is exactly the problem with a LFD. Getting someone who half asses the content really screws with everyone else in the game. If you can't play your role don't join pugs, find others who are learning too and work together to get better. The way you put it is basically saying "I don't care about anyone but myself".

As far as I'm concerned, they can add a LFD feature but I'll boot anyone from the group that acts like a fool. Teleporting to the instance is asinine. WoW is the only game that does that as far as I know and we all know WoW is an utterly cheapened experience of an MMO. Now should it take an hour to get to an instance, no. 15 minutes sure, it will give you a chance to determine if someone is an asshat or not. SE will indeed stay away from instanced content as much as possible though so I don't think we will have to worry too much.

I'm not trying to be a dick here but if you want something you can log on, run an instance, get some drops and be done in an hour, go back to WoW. FFXIV or any FF game for that matter has a loyal following that is familiar with a truly challenging (and rewarding) scope of gameplay. SE is aiming to make it more casual but I can guarantee the true rewards will come to those with perseverance.

I work 50+, have many friends, have dates with bottles of tequila... frequently >.< and M-F quick and rewarding things would be great! But on the weekends I want some epic adventure not grinding an instance for the umpteenth time. If it becomes a game of simply running instances it is no better than the cookie cutter MMOs out there already. My 2c on the matter.

Even that's not the point. It doesn't matter about meeting dicks (because they will be fun on occasion), it's about ruining the fabric of an MMO as a massively player online game and converting it into just a multiplayer online game.

Even on Rift, which is a "mainstream" MMO, half the people complained about dungeon-finder, so it's not like everyone and their dog is in favour of this feature anyway.

[Felis]

A Dungeon Finder system does have problems, yes, but they don't exist in games because the developers felt like screwing up balance. As an anecdotal example, when I played WoW along with some other friends in FFXI, we almost never did dungeons until the dungeon finder was implemented, and did them daily or more often afterwards. It's a great solution to people who want to do PUGs, but can't or don't want to spend hours finding groups for them as in FFXI. WoW's implementation also solves the problem with class favoritism that plagued FFXI for years and made finding PUGs a nightmare. Put another way, no one will force you to use a dungeon finder, but it can allow people who might not otherwise do this content to do it, and making content more accessible is the stated goal of the dev team.

This would be a group finder, not a dungeon finder.
My god, open your map, open your eyes and search the dungeons yourself. Don't be too casual

Lastly, I'm for a teleport simply because the content itself is currently time limited. Especially considering how long it takes to get from point A to point B without teleporting in this game, spending 30-60+ minutes to get to a dungeon that's less than an hour long is a phenomenal waste of time. It also gets annoying if you do the content more than every once in a while, having to walk to it every damned time.

Teleport to the nearest camp and walk from there or use a chocobo (coming with 1.19)

[weeble]

in warhammer there was scrolls that were buyable for the quick port to places, but u can only buy them if your linkhshell was high enough in ranks, this might be a cool way to do it, make it so first time to dungeons need adventure there, and maybe threw company missions and ranks u eventually get the reward after lots of hard work to be able to get to them with ease.

but auto lfd sounds like a cool idea to me, i didn't play a game that had that for dungeons. only stuff like scenarios. i'd like something in this game that is fast and auto with ports. i mean, if dungeons is gonna be ffxiv's main endgame this game is screwed anyway. but lots of dungeons and a lfd with it sounds cool, long as there gonna be some better endgame later.

besides lfd can really be like pug'ing it? not like you have to use it, but seems like a convenience factor for speed. and with ffxiv only having the 4 and 8man dungeons at the moment ...people will probably want easier ways of getting groups going.