WAR Adjustments

[whiskeybravo]

Removing the can't die function would plummet the usefulness of the skill back to pre-2.1.. Aside from the T9 mechanic (which, is that a specific thing that occurs from using Holmgang or do all "binds" work in that manner?), there's no real need to use Holmgang except for the can't die function.

[Coth_X]

That does bring up another good point, why does WAR not have their own provoke?

[Kitru]

That does bring up another good point, why does WAR not have their own provoke?

Because the devs have no problem with requiring cross-class skills for certain fundamental capabilities for a job.

WAR is designed around getting Featherfoot, Convalescence, and Provoke. Their CD suite and fundamental functions are both dependent upon cross-class.
PLD is designed around getting Foresight from MRD, even if it is laughably weak, it's still part of their CD suite.
BLM and SMN are both designed around getting Quelling and Raging Strikes from ARC. Their only real DPS CD and their threat drop are both cross-class, and both of those are fundamental requirements of a DPS.
SMN's AoE is designed around getting Blizz II from THM, and AoE is something that all casters are assumed to have.
SCH is designed around getting Cleric Stance and Protect from CNJ. CS is basically required for anything approaching soloing, and Protect is that buff that you're *always* supposed to have. You could probably count Stoneskin, too, since it's part of their healing toolkit.
All casters get Swiftcast from THM, and that's something that all casters are basically required to have.

It actually makes a lot of sense to build a job around the functionality you know it's going to steal from another class. When you're limiting the number of abilities to provide, it frees up space. It also forces players to level up more than 1 job to get various abilities, which the devs most definitely want (just look at the subclass reqs for a job).

There isn't a problem insofar as WAR doesn't get a native provoke; it's more of a question as to why it doesn't have native provoke functionality when there's an ability that could very easy carry that functionality. The reason might be as I indicated before (that the pull/bind effect would require a CD/range that isn't compatible with what the devs are going to require out of Provoke in content), but it's still a reasonable question to ask.

[Coth_X]

It just feels like a pld could get away with not really needing to have foresight, whereas WAR absolutely must have provoke.

[Kitru]

It just feels like a pld could get away with not really needing to have foresight, whereas WAR absolutely must have provoke.

Well, a WAR could get away with not having Provoke; it would just require an insane level of cooperation and timing (I've actually done this with a friend of mine on a UW fight; we were both WARs and only used SE>SP except when we swapped, wherein we would use 2-3 BB combos to steal agg and then go back to SE>SP).

None of the cross-class abilities are *required* for play, but there is definitely functionality that is required by design that is cross-class.

[LukeyP666]

I like the idea of turning Holmgang into a Marauder's version of Provoke, but not every enemy (bosses mainly) is susceptible to Bind. That might lead to a limitation in that you've bound yourself in place, and in the same skill, provoked the enemy, but it can still move and get away from you, thus wasting your provoke.

I would also assume that the pull of the chain from Holmgang is the same as knock-back, meaning that some enemies will also be immune to it as well.

My suggestion is therefore to remove the 'Can't Die' aspect from Holmgang and create a new Skill for that. Then you could extend the range of the pull of Holmgang's Chain and give it the effect of Provoke. In the event of an enemy being immune to knock-back, and therefore also presumably the pull, make it so that you use the chain to pull yourself to the enemy, like a gap closing skill akin to Monk's Shoulder Tackle.

Beyond two bosses I can think of (WP Flan Boss when it targets a random party member, and Brayflox HM Vangob's charge), the bind/self-bind aspect is pretty useless, so could be removed.

[Kitru]

I like the idea of turning Holmgang into a Marauder's version of Provoke, but not every enemy (bosses mainly) is susceptible to Bind. That might lead to a limitation in that you've bound yourself in place, and in the same skill, provoked the enemy, but it can still move and get away from you, thus wasting your provoke.

I don't think the solution is to remove the bind so much as make it optional.

As I mentioned before, it's entirely feasible for the devs to make it so that the enemy is bound only while you are not moving. After activating it, for the next 6 seconds, as long as *you* don't move, neither can your target. If the target is immune to bind, you can end the bind effect immediately by just keeping on keeping on; if you need to move for whatever reason, you can do that, too; if you want to keep the target right where they are, it's basically unchanged.

This change alone would take care of a vast majority of the complaints about Holmgang. It would still have massively overloaded functionality preventing each function from actually being fully useful, but at least people would stop complaining about it hurting as much as helping.

[Reynhart]

As I mentioned before, it's entirely feasible for the devs to make it so that the enemy is bound only while you are not moving.

Actually, that's a pretty good idea. Back in 1.xx, MRD had "Rampage", that "fades upon moving", so the mechanic already exists.

[Nayto]

I don't think the solution is to remove the bind so much as make it optional.

As I mentioned before, it's entirely feasible for the devs to make it so that the enemy is bound only while you are not moving.

At the very least the devs could probably make a bind 'buff' clickable... like blood for blood. Vengeance now has two buff icons, could do the same for holmgang.

[Reynhart]

Or simply remove boss immunity from Holmgang.
You can call it a "Draw-In" effect if you don't want other jobs to "Bind" them.