As a Paladin: Speedrunning and Enmity

[Sapphic]

Speed running on pld is basically about spaming flash until you run out of mp with circle of scorn thrown in there, riot blade combo to get mp back if mobs aren't dead but they should be by the time mp is out, assuming you are doing double blm and whm.

Pretty much that, on the first big pull I pop hallowed also to give sme breathing space on healer.

Also I find that double BLM isn't as fast as BLM+BRD for Brayflox.

[Lafiele]

Hello!

Recently, I've geared up to the point where tanking a speedrun is cheese on both my Paladin and Warrior (mitigation wise).

I main a Paladin (or I used to until recently) because I love the look, I'd much rather main him because of that. I leveled up Warrior recently to begin working on the Bear mount, and have found that I enjoy Warrior more simply because the insane amount of agro generation they have.

Let's take Brayflox HM for example. I can pull everything on the first big pull, and maintain agro over any Black Mage spamming Flare on my Warrior. Steel Cyclone and Overpower paired with Bloodbath healing agro just win the day.

On my Paladin, I find that losing agro in the same situation is far too easy. I can just barely keep the mobs on me! Flash only seems to do so much, and what I've found works best is to rotate each move of my Halone combo on monster after monster (Fast Blade + Savage Blade mob A, Halone Mob B, Fast/Savage Mob C, Halone Mob D and so on).

Is that really the only way? Or am I completely missing something huge here? Is my Warrior just that much better at maintaining group agro?

I want to play my Paladin more, but he just pales in comparison I hate it.

How do you other Paladins do it?

PS! I should add that I am using Circle of Scorn either before or after the first Flash, and am using it on cooldown during a pull.

Mmmm as a paladin, I haven't had any trouble holding aggro on anything. I haven't done speed runs in bray before however but the general concept is probably the same as any speed run dungeon like WP. In general, I feel it's all about your grasp of your aggro generation. Usually, I do a good amount of flashes at a beginning of a big pull. 1-2 flash usually covers 1 flare. The key for me is to fit in sufficient amount of riot blade mp regens so by the time your threat is being close to pulled away, you have at least half your mana to use on flash again. In general though, if you do a single pull, your full mana flash should be sufficient to keep the mobs on you for a good 20-30 seconds. If there is melee in the speed run and he is targeting single mobs then I just make sure i'm hitting the same mob as him. Warriors are easier hold aoe aggro but a paladin should be able to do what a warrior can as well.

Just like with the healers where whm are easier to understand but harder to play, PLD are easier to understand but harder to play well.

[Surian]

I've had plenty of trouble holding hate off monsters in a speedrun.

Flash is our ONLY viable AoE for hate. Dont kid yourself that the laughable 100 potency attack (with no enmity modifiers on it) from Circle of Scorn will even remotely contribute to the hate you gather. In comparison, it gives you the same amount of enmity as a DPS gets from doing just one basic attack.

I hate speedrunning things on PLD. Monsters go all over, and if the fight lasts longer then my MP, people will start to get hurt.

This isnt a point of "learn to tank" or "you must be doing it wrong". Paladin simply arent made to hold large crowds of monsters for an extended period of time. If stuff isnt dead by the time 30 seconds have passed, you're out of MP and out of ways to get hate.

Flash doesnt give that much Enmity either. If a DPS focuses on one monster, you cannot hold hate with Flash alone. The only way how Speed Running is viable on PLD is if you have two AoE-only DPS who dont unload on one specific monster but keep weaker attacks spread out across a lot of monsters. If you end up with a DPS that can only do single target attacks, it's over.

It's a terribly flawd system and can only be fixed by either;

A: Making people stop doing Speedruns or large pulls (yeah, good luck with that...)

or

B: Buffing PLD just like how Warrior got massive buffs and giving it more AoE attacks that it can spam for hate, possibly modifying Circle of Scorn to have a lower recast and more enmity generated on it.

[Merle]

I've had plenty of trouble holding hate off monsters in a speedrun.

...

I hate speedrunning things on PLD. Monsters go all over, and if the fight lasts longer then my MP, people will start to get hurt..

Mmm i never had any issues holding hate from 357890 monsters. Yes, i agree, is just a "Flash" spam and you ran out mp, but.... you know, you can use your MP recovery combo to get some mp back and keep using flash. Also, that combo generates hate since you're doing dps. Switch between target while spamming flash/mp combo and you shouldn't lose any mob. (like you said, if a dps does single target attack, focus your combo on said mob)

This is of course, if dps doesn't go full ape-sh*t since beginning and don't give the tank enough time to do 2-3 Flash

[Fluttersnipe]

Pretty much, imagine you having 10 adds, it would take 30 global cooldowns to hit them all with Halone O_O.

Spam Flash, Circle of Scorn when it's up, Spirits Within when it's up. Regen MP with Riot combo.

Whether or not it's true, I've read on a lot of sites that Halone gives the same amount of threat either on a proc or not, you just don't get the str debuff.

But I agree that it should be ignored in large pulls, scorn and flash are your bread n butter of huge mobs. If one gets away just use provoke + shield lob to get it back instantly.

[Muzy]

Whether or not it's true, I've read on a lot of sites that Halone gives the same amount of threat either on a proc or not, you just don't get the str debuff.

Just need to chime in on this...

RoH does more agro than any other single target attack in the paladins arsenal with or without being used in a combo, but like BB, it's enmity generation is tied to the amount of damage it does, so using it in combo generates a LOT more threat.

Can't really speak of much else, since I main WAR and my GLA is at like 22 or 23 >.>

[BreyVoreas93]

It's funny I Main a ilvl 96 WAR and my Bro (who I often run with) has a ilvl 92 PLD I've noticed what most have said that regardless of diference in Aoe pull hate gen. That a PLD flashing correctly and piping a few CDs is well equipped to keep agro.

I def agree the tanks should be a bit more interchangeable while not compromising style there is an obvious diference in situations like holding holding the last 2 dreadnaughts (whatever their called) at the same time on T4 whith a PLD and WAR. He manages much better than my WAR. Good luck with ur tanking tho.

[abzoluut]

Hmm, while I do read some interesting thoughts about the two tanks we have, I do not agree that PLD is weaker when it comes to AoE tanking.

As a PLD and WAR myself, almost done with the Animus, so I did my fair share of Brayflox speed runs.

The only thing I feel is "weaker" to my WAR (which I main), is the PLD's play style: FoF, flash flash flash, flash... Riot blade if they are up still. It just doesn't feel like tanking...

[Vactus]

BB combo has more potency than RoH therefore, Create more Hate. the only thing that RoH has over BB is the Str debuff.

More potency but WAR are hit with a higher damage down with Defiance up. Gear being equal, a PLD will out threat a WAR on a ST. We have less damage on our combo and we SHOULD be using our SE/SP combos as well. The math has been done on the tank forums if you want to check. Pretty much anything by Kitru will have the math for it.

[Synra]

PLDs might barely be able to hold all those enemies, but we have always known that it was much more of a single target tank. Flash is meant to be a helper for establishing initial threat, not a solution to AOE tanking.

I think what a lot of people are forgetting is how stats work. With a WAR, every single attack you have is classified as a melee attack. Melee means it benefits from your strength. More damage = more threat. But for a Paladin, Flash isn't a melee attack, it's an offensive spell. That means it uses your Intelligence, not STR. That's why we all see such a huge difference between the threat we get off of Overpower compared to Flash. Shield Oath gives a huge improvement to flash when you get to 40, but the more you gear up at 50, the gap between overpower and flash just grows larger and larger. It's a bit of a design flaw that will become more and more apparent the further we progress.