Why Overmelding is equivalent to current ATMA grinding

[jeremy]

Just like the current ATMA grinding, there is an extreme amount of luck involved in overmelding. You can get lucky melding your first forbidden slot, just like getting lucky with an ATMA from your first FATE. Or you could be unlucky, and like last night, go 0 for 40 trying to meld a Control II into my AF leatherworker pants first forbidden slot.

To get the first level of crafting mastery available, HQ'ing 2-star items and such. I would have loved to see truly crafted AF+1, using drops from dungeons or HM Primals. Using this logical path, crafters are working to better themselves. there's a luck component still, but if someone doesn't want to hope they get a dungeon drop they need, buy it off the market boards. They still have determined how much time they want to invest, either by running dungeons or selling items to make the money needed to buy the item needed to upgrade. In addition, a crafter could progress at whatever pace they want, piece by piece or doing it all at once.

[lackofwords]

Aside from just luck with the random number generator, RNG, the similarities more or less ends there.

When overmelding, you can make the decision to spend the more expensive materia on the slots before heading into the overmelding slots.
You also have the choice of picking which order of what materia to overmelding. Most people would most likely go the route of saving gil, thus melding the most expensive/rare materia first for a better chance, and the cheap/common ones last. Since each overmeld drops immensely; 40%, 20%, 10%, 5% with minor fluctuations depending on the materia you're using.

Gathering Atma from FATEs is just playing with RNG, also don't see the %. You do have a choice of which FATE to go to, but that doesn't make much of a difference.
Even after gathering all the Atma you need, all it does it prep your weapon for an upgrade with books. It does not actually upgrade anything yet.
Also you can't buy Atma, you're forced to obtain them on your own.

[jeremy]

My point is that there is still the RNG element to this unlocking of progression, versus a concrete unlocking. You pay 10k, you can meld into slot 3, 30k for slot 4, or 60k for slot 5. You go defeat Leviathan HM, you get Atma of the Waterbearer. No RNG to play with. No feeling unlucky you can't progress because a number generator is not allowing you.

[Giantbane]

Some level of RNG is ok to mix things upbut too much RNG, especially when you have little to no control of the results of that RNG, just isn't a fun mechanic for modern games.

It sucks because you could spend 1 or 100 materia trying to slot that 5th slot. But the worst part of the overmelding system is the clunky melding interface and the fact that you have to go through the same stupid UI dialogs -> meld animation -> fail -> repeat loop over, and over, and over, and over again until you finally stick that last materia. It can end up being quite a lot of wasted time on low % materia melds and it's boring as all hell.

It would be much better as an exact system where you just use multiple materia for overmelds. First overmeld requires 2-3 materia to fill the slot, Second requires 4-5, Third 8-9, Fourth 11-12. Or something of that nature. Maybe have a random chance to use 1-2 less materia so there's still a random aspect of getting a lucky reward. But remove the wide range of random results and definitely remove the repetitive meld -> fail -> meld -> fail -> meld -> fail process. It sucks.

[FJerome]

Am I seriously the only crafter that likes that our progression has almost zero to do with the PvE progression? My ability to be serious business weaver shouldn't be tied to my ability to be able to kill Primals, Leviathan teaches me nothing about rolled hems.

[lackofwords]

I think we all might be misunderstanding what the OP was trying to convey.

The title of the thread, "Why Overmelding is equivalent to current ATMA grinding", seems to say he is trying to compare the two systems.

But then it seems like he is instead trying to give feedback on the Atma system instead.
Such as recommending that Atma drops from Primal HM/EX fights instead of solely FATE drops... I don't know, maybe that's wrong too. I'm not all too sure what he is trying to get at.

[Trespar]

Am I seriously the only crafter that likes that our progression has almost zero to do with the PvE progression? My ability to be serious business weaver shouldn't be tied to my ability to be able to kill Primals, Leviathan teaches me nothing about rolled hems.

But on the other hand, what does buying an inhuman amount of materia and pressing a button, then hoping it sticks teach you about crafting?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think battlecraft drops is the best way to go about it, either. But solely relying on materia as a means of progression feels bad, man.
The new ilvl 70 tools and glasses are a good step in the right direction, but it's not enough.

[Jinko]

I think its a cultural thing tbh, eastern cultures are quite superstitious of luck and chance where as the same is not really true for western cultures outside of a bit of gambling here and there.

This is a Japanese game so expect lots of RNG and unfairness.

I think we all might be misunderstanding what the OP was trying to convey.

The title of the thread, "Why Overmelding is equivalent to current ATMA grinding", seems to say he is trying to compare the two systems.

But then it seems like he is instead trying to give feedback on the Atma system instead.
Such as recommending that Atma drops from Primal HM/EX fights instead of solely FATE drops... I don't know, maybe that's wrong too. I'm not all too sure what he is trying to get at.

Seems easy to understand, he is saying too much RNG, tone it down.

Leviathan teaches me nothing about rolled hems.

And the crafting system does ?

[D_C]

Am I seriously the only crafter that likes that our progression has almost zero to do with the PvE progression? My ability to be serious business weaver shouldn't be tied to my ability to be able to kill Primals, Leviathan teaches me nothing about rolled hems.

The idea behind Materia is cool. I just hate the mechanics of it. It's either an annoyin' timesink or a good way to flush all yer gold down the crapper. The worst part is really that the best way to get Materia IS to PvE...Farmin' in South Shroud, for example. It's not only faster than making Cobalt Bars or somethin', but it doesn't consume materials, especially the shards and crystals. And if you wanted to mine it all yerself, you could wear the craftin' gear and mine shards...But that's even slower since they're all level 1.

All that said, I reall do like the idea behind it. Like you said, it has nothin' to do with killin' shite unless you make it so. A crafter has to make the equipment, then a crafter has to improve it. It's all craftin'. And before this patch, it was even customizable...Did you want more CP or Control? Put that shite in there. Up to a point of course. But the offhand is a good example of how it works well, mechanics aside.

But it is the mechanics. The implementation, all RNG and no mistake, is frustratin'. There's no way to do it that just feels like yer makin' any progress. Grindin' Materia for hours just to blow it up doesn't feel awesome.

It's kinda like how items for PvE work in the game now. Ya could go years without seein' the gloves you want drop off of some dragon. But there's tomestones, so you could pick up a pair of those OTHER gloves at least. If there was some kinda definite progression it'd be nice, but you can't have some piece of gear with "slightly off" stats in the current model, since everythin' needs to be perfectly melded to get to the 3 star crafts.

[infinitezero]

Risk vs Reward. Having RNG determine weather or not you can successfully over-meld makes sense. Without the RNG, everyone would be easily capable of mastering all crafts, thereby destroying the market for 3-star items AND the materia market as well.
That being said, one change I would love to see is having the percentage of success increase depending on what stats the craftsman has. Even if it's only a little bit, it would give incentive to not go to just any craftsman for your melds, the same way you wouldn't go to just any available craftsman for synthesis.