Switching from PLD to WAR and need advice

[Kitru]

Basically a warrior is a 1 trick pony that should stick to MT, fun at the start but a chore to use. Warriors don't get an exclusive slot in party finder for a reason, 2 pld? Ok 2 war? No thanks.

WAR is no more a one-trick pony than PLD is. If you want to call WAR a one-trick pony because of IB, it's just as apt to call PLD a one-trick pony because of HG because that's the only real unique tanking advantage that they bring (they bring the utility of silence and chainstun capability, but WAR brings a helluva lot more damage than PLD, neither of which is valued for their primary purpose of survival).

WAR is also not simply valued for MT because WAR actually provides better debuffs than PLD does (SE and SP kick the living crap out of RoH) as well as significantly better damage. Neither WAR nor PLD is really the de facto best MT or OT because which is best is entirely situational. When an enemy does a lot of regular predictable burst damage, WAR is better for tanking it; when an enemy has specific long periods of sustained high damage, PLD is better for tanking it. WAR and PLD are ridiculously well balanced at the moment.

The fact that WAR and PLD are so well balanced means that you shouldn't really be seeing any cases where a group specifically desires two of either. Double PLD is just as bad as double WAR and, because WAR and PLD are optimal for different scenarios, it actually behooves a raid group to have one of each, much like it behooves a group to have a SCH and a WHM rather than two of either.

I've actually run in a number of excellent groups that had 2 WARs. The only reason that double PLD still gets some credence is because it *used* to be the optimal comp, and people don't like changing their perceptions; it's actually no better than double WAR and categorically worse than WAR and PLD. It's not to say that you should feel compelled to take both since you can basically do everything with either tank composition, but there is a very tangible advantage towards doing what the OP is.

[juniglee]

BB spam is actually the worst possible rotation you can do as a WAR: it's got the lowest damage (barring just spamming SP) and isn't even the best enmity generator.

WAR has 3 basic useful rotations:

SE>BB>BB>BB: this is your highest enmity rotation. Use it at the start of the fight to generate your enmity cushion (if you're not doing the opening attack string that I use) or when you have someone riding your ass.
SE>BB: this is your highest damage rotation that also generates strong enmity. Use it when you damage taken isn't really an issue (re: when you don't need the SP debuff).
SE>SP: this is the rotation you use when you have your enmity cushion or when you are offtanking. It maintains both debuffs with 100% uptime and does the second highest damage of your rotations.

Yes I mean, once you have enough of an enmity lead, it allows you to play around with the other combos. I never said spamming BB combo was the optimal aggro rotation. To properly play Warrior to the full potential, you have to mix and match your combos, to give you constant debuff/Maim uptime, so that each BB combo counts. Hit slow, but hard.

Overpower generates more enmity not because it deals damage. Flash could just as easily generate more enmity than Overpower if the devs cranked up the enmity value on Flash but they didn't. In fact, against enemies with dramatically beefed up damage resistance, Flash actually generates more than Overpower because Flash simply generates enmity based upon your attack power (which also means that it doesn't benefit from FoF) whereas Overpower generates enmity based upon the damage you deal (damage absorbed by an absorb shield is still valued at its full value even if it throws up a 0).

Nice. I guess I learnt something new today. Although I hardly use Flash these days, I used to use it a lot more at a lower level since TP felt like it was at a premium.

WAR cds are weaker but on shorter CDs which does not mean that the WAR CD suite is inferior. If you use them like you would PLD cds (that is to say, holding on to them until you really need a CD) and using that as your point of comparison, you're doing it wrong. The best way to use the WAR CDs is to use them actively while staggering them. By staggering them, you can basically have some kind of CD active on you 100% of the time. PLD can't get anywhere close to that which is why they have to pick and choose when to use their CDs. A WAR that doesn't have 1-2 CDs on CD at any point in time (at least while they're tanking) is doing it wrong.

Thanks, I am still learning to manage my cooldowns as a Warrior. I have never found a need to keep CD's on constant uptime, since most contents don't need that, but to always have some CD's available (basically, as you say, holding on to them until I need one, like PLD). That's kind of something I need to learn manage myself too.

Warriors don't get an exclusive slot in party finder for a reason, 2 pld? Ok 2 war? No thanks. .

The only reason this happens is because for contents that do need a PLD, it involves chain stunning - this is something Warrior (and any other class in the game for that matter) cannot do. Paladins' real value for that slot is because they have an on-demand/instant GCD stun. Something no other class in this game has (the closest would be White Mage with spammable Holy, but they do not have a traited 6 seconds stun, and the skill requires 3 seconds before it goes off). You can bet that if Dragoons or Monks were able to chain stun, Paladins wouldn't hold the same value in parties it does now. This is more of a mechanics issue. Paladins are no better than Warriors for any content that does not involve chain stunning, nor to say Warriors are any better than Paladins.

The only reason I made the switch for my static is so that we don't have to lot on the same set of loot (2 people lotting against a Blade and a Shield, and nobody lotting against an Axe), and for building the Limit Break bar a little easier. You may argue its needlessness, but the Strength debuff from Rage of Halone does not stack, whereas with a 1 WAR/1 PLD combo, you can have both the Strength and Damage debuff from Rage of Halone/Storm's Path up on a single boss.

[bokchoykn]

've actually run in a number of excellent groups that had 2 WARs

I think that double WAR is the optimal team comp for Turn 6 and probably Turn 7. I also think WAR is the better MT in Turn 8 (although, there are merits to PLD MT), and if you must 2-tank it, WAR is obviously the better OT.

[Leigaon]

I've noticed a difference in my cool downs. I've been a MDR > WAR for a while, then I attempted to play my friends job a PLD. The basics are the same just a different move here or there.

What I found very different was how I applied my cool downs, now in general you do them as you feel needed and in dungeons you really are solid..just basics will get you by. As WAR I always keep some sort of transition of a buff up at a time while keeping my hate so I have about 3 self buff macros and I slowly transition between them and use inner beast to either use when needed or use to give me that 20% boost to carry over to my next macro buff through troubled times.

To me, it finally clicked like it was a lot like SMN. How SMN keeps a constant strain of DOTS on the mob, I needed a constant strain of buffs on myself, and not so much the buffs your storms debuff is also helping you out. Just do it between hate.

Then again this is my own personal way of doing things I got no idea how other war's do it..I know it works for me, is fun.

[JTribal]

Thanks for the advice everyone XD I'm still low level right now so I haven't unlocked most of this stuff yet but it's good to be prepared.

We just tried T6 last night with two PLDs and it seemed like it was taking forever for the phases to switch, so it makes sense that it is probably more beneficial to have a WAR there to help push DPS damage with debuffs. Also, helps out aot to know that CDs need to be used differently since I'm so used to being greedy when I pop them on my PLD.

[Zeral]

WAR is no more a one-trick pony than PLD is. If you want to call WAR a one-trick pony because of IB, it's just as apt to call PLD a one-trick pony because of HG because that's the only real unique tanking advantage that they bring (they bring the utility of silence and chainstun capability, but WAR brings a helluva lot more damage than PLD, neither of which is valued for their primary purpose of survival).

The reason why I say WAR is a 1 trick pony is cause they arnt as effcient with other things.
PLD are generally better from personal experience cause on WAR, you can't generate berserk stacks while spamming overpower while PLD has an unlimited resource in terms of flash and riot blade without breaking the combo.
10% debuff isnt going to save anybody's life whatsoever, even if apply 24/7, its useless on short bursts such as the 3 ads on T7 for example nor productive to use it on every single mob things 5+ ads such as T4.
Turning on and off defiance isnt as efficient when tank swapping compared to sword/shield oath and you wont lose stack.
So while warrior has to use a spell to infuriate or turn it back on right before swtiching, PLD has access to an extra skill spiritswithin and scorn anytime they want while Warrior can only pick 1 from the lot and wait 20 secs to use another.

Trust me, I ENJOY playing warrior but know the limitations compared to PLD.
PLD isnt just for hallow ground, they have 20% dmg reduction 24/7 regardless of the number of ads+rotating cd and the etra hp is useless cause there arnt that many 1 shot kill abilities.
using a warrior always puts a healer on edge when you just 'suddenly spike to 10% hp while picking up ads".

The only reason this happens is because for contents that do need a PLD, it involves chain stunning - this is something Warrior (and any other class in the game for that matter) cannot do. Paladins' real value for that slot is because they have an on-demand/instant GCD stun. Something no other class in this game has (the closest would be White Mage with spammable Holy, but they do not have a traited 6 seconds stun, and the skill requires 3 seconds before it goes off). You can bet that if Dragoons or Monks were able to chain stun, Paladins wouldn't hold the same value in parties it does now. This is more of a mechanics issue. Paladins are no better than Warriors for any content that does not involve chain stunning, nor to say Warriors are any better than Paladins.

The only reason I made the switch for my static is so that we don't have to lot on the same set of loot (2 people lotting against a Blade and a Shield, and nobody lotting against an Axe), and for building the Limit Break bar a little easier. You may argue its needlessness, but the Strength debuff from Rage of Halone does not stack, whereas with a 1 WAR/1 PLD combo, you can have both the Strength and Damage debuff from Rage of Halone/Storm's Path up on a single boss.

Stun isnt needed on T7 and all I can say is its a pain using a warrior even though I cleared it as 1.
When picking up ads, the healer always has to be on their toes, cause you're going to just take SO much damage unexpectedly even with vengence.
Only advantage I can think of for warrior is steel cyclone while having the voice debuff right as ads spawn... but thats it.

I thought war/PLD would build LB bar faster too, but in T6, it never reached 3 bars.
With 2 PLD it was like 2bars and 80%, so we told 1 PLD to swtich to war, no difference.
Couldnt get 3 LB bars on super slug regardless, your dps is either too high or too low to get the LB bars.

[Kitru]

PLD are generally better from personal experience cause on WAR, you can't generate berserk stacks while spamming overpower while PLD has an unlimited resource in terms of flash and riot blade without breaking the combo.

And if you're spamming Overpower on a WAR, you're doing it wrong. A PLD has to spam Flash to keep AoE aggro; a WAR just throws 2-3 Overpowers and can go into ST rotation.

10% debuff isnt going to save anybody's life whatsoever, even if apply 24/7, its useless on short bursts such as the 3 ads on T7 for example nor productive to use it on every single mob things 5+ ads such as T4.

The 10% debuff is going to do a helluva lot more than the RoH debuff, which is what it's compared to. You're not *supposed* to apply it to everything, just the biggest thing.

Trust me, I ENJOY playing warrior but know the limitations compared to PLD.
PLD isnt just for hallow ground, they have 20% dmg reduction 24/7 regardless of the number of ads+rotating cd and the etra hp is useless cause there arnt that many 1 shot kill abilities.
using a warrior always puts a healer on edge when you just 'suddenly spike to 10% hp while picking up ads".

You obviously don't actually know how to play a WAR *well*, nor are you particularly knowledgeable about math. There is no practical difference between 20% DR and 25% +hp and 25% +healing. The only "advantage" that PLD has is in increased healing efficiency, though WAR easily makes up for that with its own self heals.

You can talk about WAR being a one-trick pony or your personal experience with WAR supporting it, but your personal experience means next to nothing when you don't even play WAR *well*. A poorly played WAR that's played like a PLD is obviously going to seem like a one-trick pony that can't perform as well in every other situation compared to a PLD. A *properly* played WAR is going to be able to perform just as well as a PLD in a vast majority of situations with the minor variations that I pointed out earlier.

[Zeral]

And if you're spamming Overpower on a WAR, you're doing it wrong. A PLD has to spam Flash to keep AoE aggro; a WAR just throws 2-3 Overpowers and can go into ST rotation.

I alreayd do the thinges you say but that was just a dumb down version.
Dont just shoot me and call others bad cause of it, I play any depending on mood.
Was just saying hte OP can save himself a week of lvling another char when he could look at hte game from a different perspective such as healer/DPS.
Knowing the fight from all perspective is better than playing the same role all over again for the same fights.
He can clear all content as PLD, why level a warrior and do the exact same thing all over again...

[Pinkie_Pie]

Also to might add, as a warrior, you will notice the boss will die alot faster due to your dps added with the right rotation.

[kukurumei]

Also to might add, as a warrior, you will notice the boss will die alot faster due to your dps added with the right rotation.

Not that significantly, It shaves a few here and there, but in the greater scheme of things, the DPS is still going to carry the bulk of the damage. They maybe useful if you have to burn something down really quick mechanic, but SE more or less made it so that it can be burned without wars anyway.

The greatest resource of going from pld to war, is that you have a lot more control over the situation, and not get caught defenseless. Face tanking sucks but you have to remember War face tanking almost always comes out pretty decently. Storms path is a straight up reduction, IB is free and works proactively and reactively, soaking damage is easy. Foresight is up a lot for what it's worth, blood bath does a decent upkeep.

But they lack any oh-crap button, as vengeance is often ration to nearly a HG level, so a war just has to pray, because they will always have to rely on continuous healer support, unlike a pld that can live a super long time by himself.

Wars are basically perfect for a meat shield, while the pld does the heavy lifting when the time comes (super hits, fancy strategies, stalling for time, etc)

Most content Wars have to be content with the fact they simply can't do fancy stuff like PLD, and yell "Bring on the pain" from the monster.

Stuff is going to hurt, no way around it.