Echo

[Versiroth]

Two weeks is not long enough for players doing Coil for the first time due to the lockout. It's an insult bringing Echo in so soon for those who couldnt find a static or didnt want to put up with particular ragers who wanted their weekly clear before reset.

The players in statics only got to beat it once a week. You got to beat it as much as you want. Honestly, you could have beat 1-5 once per day for the two weeks and you'd have equaled over 3 months of progress for a normal raider. Two weeks was plenty of time.

[Alcyon1]

Echo can be seen as "more stuff" and that's all.

[Lemon8or]

Thanks to Echo, I've been able to get several members of our FC through turn 5 and Titan EX so it does help. People still need to execute mechanics but now they can focus on it and worry less about DPS/heal check.

[ColorOfSakura]

The Echo basically lowers the restrictions of DPS and Heal checks in harder fights and that's all. The players still have to know what they're doing. The Echo doesn't magically make it so that you aren't going to die to things like bombs and plumes or twisters.

Case in point: I ran Titan HM for a relic this weekend and we managed to get past the heart phase of Titan without the Echo but still wiped due to people just not getting out of the way of stuff. We ended up wiping like three times. Even with the increased heal potency and damage, people still died because they weren't moving out of the way. The Echo simply made it easier to kill the heart and burn Titan down a little faster, but it didn't make the rest of the mechanics any easier to deal with.

That said I ran it the next day and we beat him after only one wipe.

No amount of increased HP, heal potency, or damage is going to keep the party alive for very long if people aren't doing what the fight requires of them.

[bokchoykn]

The players in statics only got to beat it once a week. You got to beat it as much as you want. Honestly, you could have beat 1-5 once per day for the two weeks and you'd have equaled over 3 months of progress for a normal raider. Two weeks was plenty of time.

Not to mention:

-Unlimited Mythology Tomes, previously limited to 450 per week. 300 per week before 2.1
-Access to Soldiery Tomes and i100 items that weren't available before.

[ToffeeCoffee]

@RyuDragnier just noting your name for ridiculous posts, so I can skip them from now on.
@Kuwagami white knight alert. You have no idea why I didn't do Coil 1-5 before it got put in Duty Finder. Having the lockout removed helped me gain access to the content, as I didn't have a static. I just didn't appreciate the Echo buff so soon. Congrats for finding a non-Echo team, I'm sure because you tested it, it's going to become the norm to set up/find non-Echo parties (@RyuDragnier this is how you do sarcasm). Most (yes I don't have a %) people won't remove Echo, admit it.

[ToffeeCoffee]

The players in statics only got to beat it once a week. You got to beat it as much as you want. Honestly, you could have beat 1-5 once per day for the two weeks and you'd have equaled over 3 months of progress for a normal raider. Two weeks was plenty of time.

Because I have as much time to be on the game as you, to run and clear Coil 1245 all day every day for 2 weeks to get all my loot before the nerf. Delusional.

[bokchoykn]

Titan EX with Echo

• Getting hit by Landslide: Will still knock you off the platform.
• Getting hit by 3+ plumes: Will still kill you.
• Not moving properly for Gaols: Will still probably kill one of you.

• Getting hit by a bomb: Less likely to kill you with the HP boost from Echo.
• Mountain Buster on Tank: Easier with HP and healing boost from Echo. If the tank is not topped off, got hit by bombs, or is not using defensive cooldowns properly, Echo buff might pull you through.
• Meeting DPS checks (Heart, Gaols, Gaolers, Bomb, Enrage): Much easier with DPS boost from Echo. Your chances of salvaging a win when you've lost a DPS (or two) improves considerably.
• Solo tanking when the other tank fell off the platform: Easier to survive 3+ Buster stacks with the HP boost from Echo.
• Solo healing when the other healer fell off the platform: Easier to manage with the Healing boost from Echo.
• Winning the fight in general: Dealing X% more DPS means the fight is X% shorter. Therefore, fewer chances to make mistakes. You're also pushing phases, resulting in fewer mechanics to deal with.

So please, don't claim that Echo doesn't make this fight considerably easier. You're failing to acknowledge everything other than the first three points listed above, which is a really ignorant thing to do. Apply this same logic to every other fight in the game. Echo buff is OP.

[juniglee]

Because I have as much time to be on the game as you, to run and clear Coil 1245 all day every day for 2 weeks to get all my loot before the nerf. Delusional.

I noticed you are on the same server as me. So I'll try and give you some insight on my perspective of it.

There was a time where I was off for holidays for 3 weeks. Due to my addiction to Coil (I admit it!), I ended up buying a new laptop while I was on holiday, just to run Coil with my static. The week I bought it, I then found out that they pugged a tank because they weren't free for the rest of the week.

No problem, I thought. It took me about 5 hours, but I was able to down T1 - T4 with various pug setups. I never stayed in a single party from T1 - T4, as most parties broke up after each respective turn clear.

T5 was a different beast. But I can tell you that about 4 weeks before 2.2, I cleared T5 with a PF pug party. Yes, it's doable.

I must have spent a total of 30-something hours just pugging T5. All of it is done on weekends however. I never touch T5 pugs during the weekdays. From my first T5 pug practice party, to my first T5 pug clear, it took a grand total of about 6 weeks. 30-something hours in 6 weeks means I spend at least 2.5 hours each weekend day for pugging T5.

The time you have to spend is irrelevant. It's what you do with it that counts. It seems you simply want to clear Twintania without the Echo buff. That's why I pushed to clear it, even if I had to do it with pugs, before 2.2. I only finally got my first Allagan loot (Battleaxe) about 2 weeks before 2.2, and I got my Allagan Blade about 3 weeks into 2.2 (5% Echo buff).

The skill level of pugs in our server I feel is generally quite high, therefore even if you don't have a static, it's still feasible to find a group to clear it with you. Even at this point of time, there have been pug parties clearing T8, and I have a static which only just entered T8 a few days ago.

[Kuwagami]

@Kuwagami white knight alert. You have no idea why I didn't do Coil 1-5 before it got put in Duty Finder. Having the lockout removed helped me gain access to the content, as I didn't have a static. I just didn't appreciate the Echo buff so soon. Congrats for finding a non-Echo team, I'm sure because you tested it, it's going to become the norm to set up/find non-Echo parties (@RyuDragnier this is how you do sarcasm). Most (yes I don't have a %) people won't remove Echo, admit it.

Not agreeing with your point of view doesn't make me a white knight.
Indeed I have no idea why you didn't get to Coil. Everyone have their reasons. Yet, you had the possibility. You didn't even have to wait for DF to come, as PF parties filled pretty fast in 2.1 (you just had to be sure that noone was trying to troll you and lock you in T3+ but that's an other problem...)

As Versiroth said, you *COULD* have had 1 or 2 tries a day on T1/T2 (just example here) and in 2 weeks you'd have 3 month worth of experience prior to 2.2. Getting or not all your gear is not the question here (coming from someone without a loot in month. I had to wait lockout removal to get what I needed). Just experience.


Also, it's not because I found a non-echo team that it will be the norm. It just shows that people are willing to do it, and that you can get a team for it. And true enough, people in DF won't remove it (got a few exception to ease phase switch in Titan Ex but that's an other case). Yet in PF they will. Because they joined a "non echo team". That's the difference.

Lastly, please, stop the "I don't have a static" excuse. You may have random schedules preventing you from joining a static, it never was a "no static no access" problem. I can't count the number of groups with 100% pugs because people don't have any statics. Even on T6/T7, I know for sure around 4 full groups of PUGs (which makes them some sort of semi statics I guess ? well, they just happen to play together as they are only a few at the moment). Noone prevented you to join/form a group but yourself.
(Please note that I'm not trying to be mean...)

Titan EX with Echo

• Getting hit by Landslide: Will still knock you off the platform.
• Getting hit by 3+ plumes: Will still kill you.
• Not moving properly for Gaols: Will still probably kill one of you.

Sadly enough, these are the only point that matters for Titan Ex. There aren't many groups that can get to enrage, because they wipe/win before it.
If they win, no need of echo.
If they die, echo won't help them for that. As far as I know, tanks are the only ones who can survive the 5 plumes.