[dev1079] Critical information needed regarding raid lockouts

[Raikki]

Can we please get some specific details about the raid lockout system for the upcoming dungeons? Chiefly, will a player who has already participated in the dungeon whose lockout has not yet reset be able to assist another group of players in clearing the dungeon? The potential problem is very serious if we can't.

In order for a linkshell to be able to consistently field a healthy full party, it will be necessary to have more than 8 active players, so that any one player being unavailable will not prevent everyone else from enjoying the dungeon. However, this means that for the majority of the time there will be MORE than 8 active players wanting to run the dungeon. Are we going to be forced to play favorites and decide who gets to go and who doesn't, or can we do two runs to include everyone without needing EXACTLY 16 active players (which is no better than trying to get exactly 8 for one run)?

While it could theoretically be possible to /shout in Ul'dah to find an extra player or two, this is not only extremely inconvenient but hinders strategic play. Most people will want to raid with a stable group of players who can learn to play together as a cohesive team, rather than "pick up groups" with unpredictable results.

I sincerely hope that we can find this out ahead of the patch. I would like to be able to plan for this as soon as possible so that my friends and I can all enjoy the dungeon without stressing about filling out groups or excluding people.

[TirionCrey]

Don't assume that one person can enter the dungeon more than once each lockout period. Everything else would make the lockout period itself obsolete.

This is an MMO and content is limited to certain sizes of groups, as in every other MMO, so you have to play favourite every now and then. It's your responsibility though to keep it fair and give people who have to sit out the priority on the next run, so nobody sits out twice in a row.

Either or, you'd be best to assume that you can't enter a dungeon more than once each lockout, so plan ahead based on that assumption.

The only thing I really hope is, that the lockout period is not gonna be something like 3-4 days...rather 2days max, cause everything else would suck right now. There is not much to do and then being limited to something "new" only 1h every 4 days and then possibly having to make people sit out on that and wait another 4 days would really suck.

[Raze]

Agree with OP, especially with the way loot is currently, I'd like to be able to know whether I have to plan my fun in multiples of 8.

[Raikki]

This is an MMO and content is limited to certain sizes of groups, as in every other MMO, so you have to play favourite every now and then. It's your responsibility though to keep it fair and give people who have to sit out the priority on the next run, so nobody sits out twice in a row.

I'm bracing for this but I don't believe it's a necessary evil of MMO design. For example, when December NMs came out, you could go with up to 15 people, but you could also succeed with 8 or fewer. This gave you a large window so that you could have an LS activity that did not exclude people but that was also not contingent upon EVERYONE being online. In FFXI, you could do Fafnir (and many others) with up to a full alliance, but if you were skilled you could beat him with only half that many people (or fewer), again giving you wiggle room in fielding a team.

I am fearful of introducing stress and potential drama when we shouldn't be feeling anything other than excitement about these dungeons. I don't want the WoW system where successful guilds sit players on the "bench" and give them DKP as a consolation prize for not being allowed to participate. Still, I'll do my best to try to keep stuff fun for everyone no matter what they throw at us.

[Jynx]

We will find out in a mere 10 days.

[Chardrizard]

It has pros and cons, of course. but, in a way it forced you to socialize a.k.a find randoms or pickups.

[Raikki]

We will find out in a mere 10 days.

Is it so awful that I don't want this to be a last minute surprise? I could take care of any necessary recruiting and scheduling ahead of time and save a lot of people a lot of stress and stop any potential drama from brewing. It would be cruel for everyone to show up after the patch eager to do dungeons only to find out, "sorry, you didn't make the A team, you'll have to wait til next time or PUG it". If this is going to be necessary it's far better to know ahead of time so nobody will be surprised by it on patch day, especially if the lockout time is long.

[Jynx]

It's not awefull to ask the question, but response or not we will find out soon enough.

*edit*
Personally I imagine that when you run a dungeon win or fail your going to be locked out for the set period of time. People abusing a "Helping others" system would arise far too quickly.

[TirionCrey]

I'm bracing for this but I don't believe it's a necessary evil of MMO design. For example, when December NMs came out, you could go with up to 15 people, but you could also succeed with 8 or fewer. This gave you a large window so that you could have an LS activity that did not exclude people but that was also not contingent upon EVERYONE being online. In FFXI, you could do Fafnir (and many others) with up to a full alliance, but if you were skilled you could beat him with only half that many people (or fewer), again giving you wiggle room in fielding a team.

I am fearful of introducing stress and potential drama when we shouldn't be feeling anything other than excitement about these dungeons. I don't want the WoW system where successful guilds sit players on the "bench" and give them DKP as a consolation prize for not being allowed to participate. Still, I'll do my best to try to keep stuff fun for everyone no matter what they throw at us.

I'm totally fine with being able to low man stuff, but overall I'd rather have content be tuned around the "max" amount of people you can bring and doing it with anywhere less then that would either be impossible or only limited to the really skillful people who can make up for a whole person missing.

That's how you implement challenging content in MMOs, tune it for max or close to maximum performance and that's what I want to see(not neccesarily on everything but at least some mobs who should be tuend around that)

[Raikki]

It's not awefull to ask the question, but response or not we will find out soon enough.

*edit*
Personally I imagine that when you run a dungeon win or fail your going to be locked out for the set period of time. People abusing a "Helping others" system would arise far too quickly.

Well, it could be like regional or faction leves where people can participate even if they're not on the leve and they just get a small bonus instead of the full reward. So, loot could drop only for people who aren't locked out.