Learning to Tank

[kukurumei]

Cure has some utility at low levels, but as you get higher and start to stack points into VIT while the healers around you are dropping theirs into MND, more and more you'll see your Cures becoming more and more pointless. The amount of damage restored no longer counts as worthwhile mitigation; You're much more likely to stay alive by using weaponskills and auto-attacks to speed the death of the foe than you are by slowing your death through cures.

You'll find that the abilities you get from MRD are too good to sacrifice a slot to Cure, especially when you graduate to PLD and lose most of your cross-class slots.

In theory, you could generate some decent cures by stacking MND over VIT, but that will outright cripple you endgame. Having power cures won't help much when you're on the ground after Titan one-shot you from full HP with Mountain Buster!

cure is still useful, but in terms of GCD/MP, it's not enough, so reason PLD stop using it around 30-40. Stoneskin is useful but really meant for 8-man full pts a lot more, when you have damage that scales with 8mans. (and stack mechanics becomes increasingly bothersome).

I would say cure until you get shield oath, and stoneskin after is the general turning point.

Before shield oath(40), you can't really afford the def, and you are expected to lose hate every so often because your rotation generally can't compensate for DPS (and realistically stuff don't hit that hard for dps to care).

After shield oath content seems to scale with it, as not having shield oath is a dead ringer for losing threat, and getting slapped so hard not even cure spam will save you.

Warrior is a bit more different since they never have threat problems from beginning to end, but will always have damage problems. Defiance only solves so much.

[Foo01]

I don't know who gets it worse.... Tanks with lousy healers or healers with lousy tanks. I am exploring the tank role because I was having trouble with tanks as healer. But this got to take the cake. This was toto-rak, not all that difficult, but I got this healer that was having connection issues, disconnect, reconnects etc. But the group made do just fine. So I go down at the final boss with like 5% remaining, the healer was not healing or missing heals for whatever reasons. But the DPS finishes off the boss with a LB and I was there on the ground. I ask for a "please res", and the healer just leaves on us now that the dungeon is done. This is what people do? When I played a healer I raised/resurrected anybody and everybody, every chance I got. Not that it is a big deal, but getting a easy res at the end, is that too much to ask?

[JeniLinsky]

Well the archer in my group was level synced. So is it really ok, to let that mob go to them and not worry about it? Would they be able to handle it and not die?

As a high-level paladin, my rule in parties is: you pull it, you eat it.

Do I try to intercept things making a break for the DDs? Yes. But my priority for keeping people alive is the healers. There's an old rule of thumb for dungeons: If the tank dies first, it's the healer's fault. If the healer dies first, it's the tank's fault. If the DDs die first, it's their own damn fault.

Plus, DDs usually have a pretty good idea of what they can handle. The Lancer / Dragoon isn't as heavily armored as you are, but she's better armored than the Pugilist / Monk / Archer / Bard, who are in turn better armored than the casters. If you see a low-level DD pulling aggro off you, discuss it with them... nicely. They may not have the experience to know why you're losing aggro. If you see a high level DD repeatedly pulling aggro off you, let them. They have a good idea of what they can handle, just as you have a good idea of what you can handle.

[Souljacker]

There's an old rule of thumb for dungeons: If the tank dies first, it's the healer's fault. If the healer dies first, it's the tank's fault. If the DDs die first, it's their own damn fault.

99% of the time I agree with you. I have tanked for over a decade across three games, and I have seen DPS do some stupid things. That being said - I have been in many dungeons as a DRG and a CNJ and tanks do seem to struggle disproportionately. As an inexperienced DRG without any expensive gear I had no issues pulling threat from tanks without trying, and on CNJ I have to time cures very carefully because tanks struggle to hold aggro. Something in the design, especially for the sword and board tanks that seem to have a harder time of it than the warriors\marauder tanks, needs tweaks. I agree that tanks need to use their cooldowns and abilities intelligently, but the level of struggle I am seeing in content needs to be addressed.

[JeniLinsky]

Not that it is a big deal, but getting a easy res at the end, is that too much to ask?

The basic problem is: being decent to each other, and treating other players as humans instead of program objects... is it too much to ask? For the vast majority, the answer is "No, that's not too much to ask," but there are people who are unable to see the people behind the avatars. If you tank, you'll meet 'em. It's just one of the perks of the job.

[Kerowyn]

AoE Threat rotation for Glad before Rage of Halorn : Shield Lob to pull> Flash>Flash>Fast Blade>Riot Blade> Flash. Tab to new target repeat rotation from Fast Blade and rinse and repeat.

Also NEVER start a pull with Provoke. The way provoke works if you pull a mob that has no hate towards any targets as soon as someone even taps it or activates a Buff CD o something they will pull agro. Provoke will only put you +1 to the person with the highest agro on the mob that has been provoked.

Also when you use Provoke on a mob that you have lost agro on, follow it with a Shield Lob for a quit hate boost. Provoking an off mob to get it back and then not following up with another ability will result in you losing agro again. If the DPS cant attack your target and keeps pulling the off targets don't sweat that. Let em die and just ready to Provoke the lose mob again so it doesn't go right for the healer as what usually happens is a healer will try to keep the DPS up too putting them 2nd on the Hate List.

[Darkdrover]

Let Tanks mark and pull (unless they ask someone else to mark)
DPS: once the tank has Tomahawked/Shield Lobbed the first mob, do a slow 3 count, then commence DPS. Yes, a few folks on this game use Parsers, but any content below 50 no one is really going to care. So take a slow 3 count. Give your Tank ample time to cement hate. Its not a race, well, in certain cases it is, but for trash, it doesn't hurt to wait a few before smacking it. It really doesn't. I guess I have been lucky, since starting a tank, I have only had a few bad experiences, but the best experience I can give new tanks is this: speak up! Immediately let the group know that you are new to tanking, or new to tanking the dungeon. Most people will be understanding of this and not go crazy. But if you just run away and start pulling packs, everyone will assume you know what you are doing and follow suit. Don't be shy/embarrassed to profess your newness, everyone has to learn at some point, right? But don't wait to tell people until after you have wiped several times to the first boss. Same goes for heals, if you are new, speak up! I promise you this: after waiting 40 mins to an hour for a dungeon, the two DPS aren't going anywhere. this game hates new players it seems, which would explain why people are afraid to say anything. Yes, you will encounter jerks, but they are the minority. Suck it up, if they don't like it, they are free to drop and wait another hour for a group. This goes both ways though; don't assume you can be a jerky tank, because if you leave, someone can always just change to tank, queue up in DF for already in progress, and come back into the dungeon and finish it for the people you left. Respect and kindness win the day. A lot of good people play this game. Don't get discouraged after a bad experience, learn from it, and keep moving. We need more tanks!

[kukurumei]

As a high-level paladin, my rule in parties is: you pull it, you eat it.

Do I try to intercept things making a break for the DDs? Yes. But my priority for keeping people alive is the healers. There's an old rule of thumb for dungeons: If the tank dies first, it's the healer's fault. If the healer dies first, it's the tank's fault. If the DDs die first, it's their own damn fault.

Plus, DDs usually have a pretty good idea of what they can handle. The Lancer / Dragoon isn't as heavily armored as you are, but she's better armored than the Pugilist / Monk / Archer / Bard, who are in turn better armored than the casters. If you see a low-level DD pulling aggro off you, discuss it with them... nicely. They may not have the experience to know why you're losing aggro. If you see a high level DD repeatedly pulling aggro off you, let them. They have a good idea of what they can handle, just as you have a good idea of what you can handle.

Dungeon possibility, endgame content, definitely not.

There are 3 rules to tanking. Mitigating damage, controlling hate, and positioning.

None of those three have to deal with who lives or dies. It can be any number of things that causes it, from not saving a dps from the mechanics, to the dps not saving the healer, to the healer not saving the tank, to you being stupid.

Popping cool downs and saving cool downs is a job of the tank, not the healer. Especially as you head to stone vigil and beyond, don't be stupid running to your death with no cool downs up. You get yourself and the party killed for no reason.

The first rule of tanking blind is keep your eyes peeled at the monster cast bar. It may not always work or even work often, but if something is being casted, you need to know, or in higher forms of battles, scream it out in some kind of voice chat, etc.

[Foo01]

Positioning seems to be most difficult to define and figure out. I can understand running right up to ifrit and turn him around, so his fire doesn't hurt the other players. But other stuff seems a lot harder to say what is best. When the room is big circle where do you go? Or if has 4 side, which side should you go to? And like Aiatar in Brayflox, no amount of tank positioning seems to work to get it to not spit poison everywhere making it hard for the DPS players. Or Chimera I see the tanks like to drag it up the snow all the way to the line, but I don't know why you need to do that?

[JemC]

So much for role playing a stupid brute. Wish they'd add another tank class but make it exciting and, omg, actually be able to hold hate even at LOWER LEVELS.