Learning to Tank

[Foo01]

Well the archer in my group was level synced. So is it really ok, to let that mob go to them and not worry about it? Would they be able to handle it and not die?

BTW, since I got a level 34 CNJ/WHM it makes sense that I go GLA then PLD. But is there skills I should try to get from the marauder?

[JayCommon]

Well the archer in my group was level synced. So is it really ok, to let that mob go to them and not worry about it? Would they be able to handle it and not die?

As a main BRD since 2.0 launch, IMO, yes it is absolutely OK for you to let that mob go directly to the archer. As the tank, YOU get to set the pace of the dungeon, not the DPS. If they don't like your pace, they can sit in another 30 min queue. That doesn't give you the right to be a jerk about it (not saying you are ), but if DPS starts blasting before you can even initiate battle then it's their fault if they die, not yours.

If they pull hate, they are one of the very few classes that can effectively kite it. So if they are a good player who doesn't care, they won't die. If they are a bad player, they will die and then you get to tell them to pay attention to that little enmity bar under their class icon in the party list.

I had that happen to me also as a low level GLD. Once I got Rage of Halone it was much easier, but as everyone said, if your DPS in group are level synced for a dungeon and you aren't it's going to be super hard to hold hate anyway. Just do your best, and as you level up and get better gear, it will become easier for you.

[Nutz]

Well the archer in my group was level synced. So is it really ok, to let that mob go to them and not worry about it? Would they be able to handle it and not die?

BTW, since I got a level 34 CNJ/WHM it makes sense that I go GLA then PLD. But is there skills I should try to get from the marauder?

Gladiator gives a lot more to Marauder than vice versa. From Marauder you can get Foresight, Bloodbath, and I suppose Mercy Stroke. Fracture might have some use, but it's kind of costly and the potency isn't very high without the trait to extend the duration. Foresight and Bloodbath are the more useful skills (I like Mercy Stroke myself, but you can only use it on a nearly dead enemy) and require only level 2 and 8 to acquire (Mercy Stroke is 26).

As to DPS taking enmity from you, it sort of depends. It might tax the healer a bit, but any DPS should be able to handle one mob easy enough. It's most likely that they'll take it from you when it's well below full health anyways unless they really unload before you get a chance to do anything (or worse they decide to pull). If it's near or below 50% hp I wouldn't worry about it at all -- start on another mob if there is one. Tanks unfortunately have to pay closer attention to their gear than other roles. If some of your gear is dated and your DPS is level synced down (especially from more than 10 levels) it will be difficult to keep hate even when doing everything absolutely correctly. If it's important that you pull a mob back from someone for some reason you have provoke.

[Moirear]

Well the archer in my group was level synced. So is it really ok, to let that mob go to them and not worry about it? Would they be able to handle it and not die?

BTW, since I got a level 34 CNJ/WHM it makes sense that I go GLA then PLD. But is there skills I should try to get from the marauder?

I'd get them all. CNJ only gives you one worthwhile cross-class ability for the endgame, and that's Stoneskin because your Mind stat is irrelevant to its efficacy. The rest are pretty much useless: Raise cannot be used in combat, Cure is too pathetic because of insufficient Mind, and Protect is eclipsed by a WHM's Protect. The MRD abilities on the other hand are all inherently useful to a PLD to varying degrees; they give you a DoT (Fracture) which actually supports enmity generation, an extra defensive cooldown, a self-healing ability based on damage you inflict, and an off-global-cooldown finishing move that might heal you if it lands a killing blow. And you only need MRD26 to unlock them all.

On a personal note, I recommend taking both tank jobs all the way to 50. You will learn a lot about both of them individually and how to work together with a different type of tank in 8-player duties.

All the dungeons up to, roughly, Haukke Manor or Brayflox's Longstop are designed in a way that no role has to be played in a completely solid fashion. Perfect role mastery only speeds up their completion. So yeah, if you lose top enmity to an archer now and then, it won't be the end of the world. You'll get more and more tools to deal with it as you progress, but generally, it's never easy at the lowest level dungeons unless you outgear the dps players. They might need to learn the hard way that pew-pewing targets only after a tank establishes adequate threat or only going full out in the right moments is also their shared responsibility in the grand scheme of aggro management.

[Taramin]

... CNJ only gives you one worthwhile cross-class ability for the endgame, and that's Stoneskin because your Mind stat is irrelevant to its efficacy. The rest are pretty much useless: Raise cannot be used in combat, Cure is too pathetic because of insufficient Mind, and Protect is eclipsed by a WHM's Protect...

Stoneskin also receives a boost from CNJ traits, and it is sub-optimal to use if there is a WHM in the party. By all means, Stoneskin away otherwise, but it's like protect, if there's a WHM present, let them cover it.

[Moirear]

Stoneskin also receives a boost from CNJ traits, and it is sub-optimal to use if there is a WHM in the party. By all means, Stoneskin away otherwise, but it's like protect, if there's a WHM present, let them cover it.

This is true, but Stoneskin still has its use even with a WHM in the party. Usually mid-combat, if you're the off-tank and have the time and MP to spare, you can stoneskin the main tank.

[JeniLinsky]

Well the archer in my group was level synced. So is it really ok, to let that mob go to them and not worry about it? Would they be able to handle it and not die?

As a high-level paladin, my rule in parties is: you pull it, you eat it.

Do I try to intercept things making a break for the DDs? Yes. But my priority for keeping people alive is the healers. There's an old rule of thumb for dungeons: If the tank dies first, it's the healer's fault. If the healer dies first, it's the tank's fault. If the DDs die first, it's their own damn fault.

Plus, DDs usually have a pretty good idea of what they can handle. The Lancer / Dragoon isn't as heavily armored as you are, but she's better armored than the Pugilist / Monk / Archer / Bard, who are in turn better armored than the casters. If you see a low-level DD pulling aggro off you, discuss it with them... nicely. They may not have the experience to know why you're losing aggro. If you see a high level DD repeatedly pulling aggro off you, let them. They have a good idea of what they can handle, just as you have a good idea of what you can handle.

[Souljacker]

There's an old rule of thumb for dungeons: If the tank dies first, it's the healer's fault. If the healer dies first, it's the tank's fault. If the DDs die first, it's their own damn fault.

99% of the time I agree with you. I have tanked for over a decade across three games, and I have seen DPS do some stupid things. That being said - I have been in many dungeons as a DRG and a CNJ and tanks do seem to struggle disproportionately. As an inexperienced DRG without any expensive gear I had no issues pulling threat from tanks without trying, and on CNJ I have to time cures very carefully because tanks struggle to hold aggro. Something in the design, especially for the sword and board tanks that seem to have a harder time of it than the warriors\marauder tanks, needs tweaks. I agree that tanks need to use their cooldowns and abilities intelligently, but the level of struggle I am seeing in content needs to be addressed.

[kukurumei]

As a high-level paladin, my rule in parties is: you pull it, you eat it.

Do I try to intercept things making a break for the DDs? Yes. But my priority for keeping people alive is the healers. There's an old rule of thumb for dungeons: If the tank dies first, it's the healer's fault. If the healer dies first, it's the tank's fault. If the DDs die first, it's their own damn fault.

Plus, DDs usually have a pretty good idea of what they can handle. The Lancer / Dragoon isn't as heavily armored as you are, but she's better armored than the Pugilist / Monk / Archer / Bard, who are in turn better armored than the casters. If you see a low-level DD pulling aggro off you, discuss it with them... nicely. They may not have the experience to know why you're losing aggro. If you see a high level DD repeatedly pulling aggro off you, let them. They have a good idea of what they can handle, just as you have a good idea of what you can handle.

Dungeon possibility, endgame content, definitely not.

There are 3 rules to tanking. Mitigating damage, controlling hate, and positioning.

None of those three have to deal with who lives or dies. It can be any number of things that causes it, from not saving a dps from the mechanics, to the dps not saving the healer, to the healer not saving the tank, to you being stupid.

Popping cool downs and saving cool downs is a job of the tank, not the healer. Especially as you head to stone vigil and beyond, don't be stupid running to your death with no cool downs up. You get yourself and the party killed for no reason.

The first rule of tanking blind is keep your eyes peeled at the monster cast bar. It may not always work or even work often, but if something is being casted, you need to know, or in higher forms of battles, scream it out in some kind of voice chat, etc.

[Foo01]

Positioning seems to be most difficult to define and figure out. I can understand running right up to ifrit and turn him around, so his fire doesn't hurt the other players. But other stuff seems a lot harder to say what is best. When the room is big circle where do you go? Or if has 4 side, which side should you go to? And like Aiatar in Brayflox, no amount of tank positioning seems to work to get it to not spit poison everywhere making it hard for the DPS players. Or Chimera I see the tanks like to drag it up the snow all the way to the line, but I don't know why you need to do that?