BLM Buffs Inc!

[Sleigh]

Having played both, it's easier to be a good BLM than it is to be a good SMN. There's less you have to pay attention to on BLM, thus easier to perform on. I don't pull it out of nowhere >_>

SMN is in general a slightly harder class to play at its core than BLM, when it comes to CD usage, Aetherflow management, pet movement/management, and general rotation. BLM does have its challenges though - much like how DRG has a longer rotation and many more CDs to use than MNK but MNK's core play style is based around GL3 upkeep with its own challenges, BLM is simpler than SMN but is based entirely around mitigating movement's penalties. That being said, I don't agree a harder job should necessarily do more damage than an easier to play one, and I certainly don't agree a harder to play job should just be superior, not in a team oriented game where gearing takes months of loot lock-outs. At the end of the day all the jobs are easy enough with a little research and a couple hours of practice to play 80-100% their capacity.

The big issue right now is, a mediocre SMN who's looked up the initial 20s opener and can keep their DoTs up will out-damage an experienced and/or played perfectly BLM, especially since multi-DoT situations are about a million times more frequent than AoE situations. The gap's large enough in mobile content it's actually tougher and takes more skill, effort, knowledge of the fight to out-damage a SMN as BLM than vice versa, but the tools simply aren't there if the SMN plays competently.

[Zencurse]

snips

You're all missing a point here: difficulty of class gameplay shouldn't affect class performance. How difficult a class is to play should be circumstantial and not telling of which does more dps. If you like playing BLM because you want to focus more on optimizing your movement as a class that dislikes moving rather than focus on the mechanics of your class that has to optimize its rotation/cd management instead you shouldn't be punished for that.

In fact if we're talking purely on what each class brings a BLM should do equal, if not more, than a SMN. Summoners are a powerful class to bring as they are currently the only DPS class that can rez, which allows healers to keep going about their business while the SMN saves the raid. BLM don't have that kind of utility, they can prevent some raid damage to themselves, and cc skills that a SMN can already do better. In this way due to the lesser utility a BLM brings to a raid you COULD argue a BLM should do more to compensate for that...

To which I would argue that utility should also not count towards which class does more dps. Imo all rdps should be about equal and all mdps should be about equal, but bring different utility to discourage class stacking.

[raelgun]

Having played both, it's easier to be a good BLM than it is to be a good SMN. There's less you have to pay attention to on BLM, thus easier to perform on. I don't pull it out of nowhere >_>

then you dont have a proper set up UI, and the skill is also thinking ahead and mitigating weakness and anything that comes out to you, smn in its current state doesnt get punished for anything, the pet does a large amount of damage and considering wind blade i think, is pretty much on auto attack, its controlled by AI, and does a better job then you at keeping up damage, this is true for pet specced locks also. Where affy locks differ is, their dots dont have high innate damage just smn have, smn dots hit hard as standard, and you can buff them even more, what im saying is, its easier for smn in its current state to do high damage, and takes away and punishing mechanics it has to do low damage.

To excel with BLM, takes a lot of skill, you need to read ahead, you need proper CD manage as mistiming CDs with BLMs is far more punishing then SMNs have and i play both too, SMNs i say are harder to get into, but easier to do high damage, BLMs i feel is the opposite here.

But sadly, to get a decent pool of data, will be tough, cos this game has a very large pool of unskilled players and extreme few theory crafters out there to generate their own stuff and debate more.

[SongJoohee]

then you dont have a proper set up UI, and the skill is also thinking ahead and mitigating weakness and anything that comes out to you, smn in its current state doesnt get punished for anything, the pet does a large amount of damage and considering wind blade i think, is pretty much on auto attack, its controlled by AI, and does a better job then you at keeping up damage, this is true for pet specced locks also. Where affy locks differ is, their dots dont have high innate damage just smn have, smn dots hit hard as standard, and you can buff them even more, what im saying is, its easier for smn in its current state to do high damage, and takes away and punishing mechanics it has to do low damage.To excel with BLM, takes a lot of skill, you need to read ahead, you need proper CD manage as mistiming CDs with BLMs is far more punishing then SMNs have and i play both too, SMNs i say are harder to get into, but easier to do high damage, BLMs i feel is the opposite here.

But sadly, to get a decent pool of data, will be tough, cos this game has a very large pool of unskilled players and extreme few theory crafters out there to generate their own stuff and debate more.

I find it very weird people say Summoner is hard to get into. After reading this thread this morning I decided to jump into Summoner, I haven't played the class since... October? November? Whenever I was levelling Arcanist for Scholar. I did a quick Google to find an opening rotation (not even sure how good it is, Raging->Dots->Fester/Contagion), jumped into a primal, I was doing 300dps~ with no echo and -30 INT as I'm specced into SCH, I'm sure it's not the best ever considering my caster item level (102) but it literally took me a few mins on Google to get to. I'm very tempted to take it to second coil at the next reset and see if it beats what I can do on BLM there. I think I miss a bit of accuracy, but I can easily just swap the Allagan book for the Levi one.

[Kirinichibon]

Thunder 1-3 seem to be the only skills in the game that mostly just overwrite each other. Cure 1-2 would if not for freecure. I would like to see Thunder 1-2 work like Aero 1-2 - one instant cast and one longer cast and stackable. Th3 could be replaced with a debuf that could increase fire and/or thunder damage. If the thunders stacked like this, the proc rate could remain the same.

I would love to see surecast updated to include movement interruptions, but other mages don't really also need to see a buff.

And SMN doesn't take skill to play - it can just be a challenge to learn.

[raelgun]

its not hard as in actually hard, i find it easy, but thats my background with end game progression with a warlock as my main, however, in terms of amount of spells, it takes more reading you could say compared to BLM, im just saying, its easier as smn to do higher damage, just popping cds and putting up and maintaining dots and leaving the pet on its own will do high damage from the get go, you cant do much wrong with it, you literally have to stop dealing damage to do low damage as a smn, BLM need more forward thinking to do high damage and sustain it, its far more punishing and the dps drops are significant, you can see good examples of this on titan ex.
An average smn will do high damage on this fight, a evenly skilled BLM will do much lower damage, a great BLM will do the same amount of damage or more, and sadly, a great SMN wont do that much more then a average SMN under those conditions

[Kenji1134]

That's pretty much what it comes down to.
BLM has an easier learning curve, but a higher skill cap, partly due to the somewhat excessive movement penalties, and partly due to the RNG nature of the class at 50. It's just very encounter specific.
SMN has a steeper learning curve, namely keeping track of your dots, which can be made easier by adjusting your UI settings, and remembering to use your 1 and 2 minute CD's.

That said, neither basic class's rotation or methodology is particularly difficult.

For example, as SMN, you could literally do a rotation of: [ Bio 2 - Miasma - Bio - 7 Ruins - Bio - Miasma - Bio 2 - 7 Ruins ] and repeat.
Is it absolutely perfect? No, you lose maybe 3-4 ticks worth via clipping or the dots falling off, but that is still about 90% of your max dot dps. Throw in the X minute CD's, intelligent use of Contagion, Ruin 2 for movement, and you are pretty much set on SMN dps.

As a BLM, you pretty much do one of several versions of the short opening rotation, just to get yourself into AF3... could be as simple as "cast F3". Then you do 4-5 F1's, depending on how you started, B3, T1/T2 depending on your Piety, maybe B1 depending on the timing of the mana tick, then F3 and repeat.
Notice how there's already some uncertainty in the simple BLM rotation? Now throw in Firestarter and Thundercloud procs. Now you may need to sit on those procs for a movement phase... But if you dont get a proc, that 40% can be very elusive, you take a large dps hit when moving. If you do get a proc, but its too early, you could end up sitting on that proc for too long, and it will time out, I've seen it happen...

So to recap.

SMN: More CD's, watch dots, though all it takes is a quick glance and some preemptive Thinking and a little Practice to do near top dps, regardless of the situation.

BLM: Less CD's, simpler baseline rotation, maintaining optimal dps requires: Experience with the fight (knowing movement phases, transitions), Luck with procs, and more Luck to make sure you don't get targeted for mechanics that require continued movement, breaking los, or just not using any actions.

That is the issue RIGHT THERE!

Once you learn SMN, its the same thing, every time, every rotation, every fight. If you have to move, no problem, Ruin 2. Figure out where to put Garuda on each fight, once, and you are set.

BLM on the other hand, while easier rotation wise, frankly the only classes with easier rotations are Bard and Paladin, is susceptible to a massive amount of RNG, and literally NEEDS TO KNOW the fight in advance in order to avoid massive dps losses. And lets not forget that a SMN does fairly consistent, reliable damage, while a BLM needs their 40% and 5% procs to do their maximum damage, but ALSO needs to sit on those procs to avoid their dps dropping to ~0 during a movement phase.

For anyone who's really played both BLM and SMN in Coil, especially T6, I am sure you would agree with this evaluation of BLM's weaknesses. So what is the solution?
Simply put, BLM needs less RNG, and a way to do more dps while moving, cause frankly the nerfed Scathe isn't worth jack.

Fix those 2 glaring issues, and THEN we can evaluate how much of a raw dps increase BLM will need to be competitive with other classes. Right now, BLM is pretty much bottom of the barrel on ST fights, and sadly, there are practically no AoE fights where mobs are within 5y of eachother... though there ARE multi-target phases where 2+ mobs are up, and being tanked in different locations.

[ZeratoTyrael]

I am in no way saying this makes up for a large portion of lost dps while moving but.....have most blm forgot about scathe? I know some of you here have mentioned it but I am talking about BLMs you meet everyday. It's not ideal if you're in Astral but if in Umbral you will just regen the MP spent back.Again, it is not the greatest option, but it is there. From parses I've ran most DF and PF BLMs, even some people in my own FC and LSs don't even use it in heavy movement fights.

Maybe I use it more liberally because I used it alot when I had bad lag for a few weeks and overcompensated my movement lol

Forgive some of my bad engrish grammatical errors.....apparently I have had better luck in 3 other languages but still fail at my home language grammar...oh the irony...

[Jeh11]

@Kenji1134

Couldn't agree more!

[sheepysheepy]

I am in no way saying this makes up for a large portion of lost dps while moving but.....have most blm forgot about scathe? I know some of you here have mentioned it but I am talking about BLMs you meet everyday. It's not ideal if you're in Astral but if in Umbral you will just regen the MP spent back.Again, it is not the greatest option, but it is there. From parses I've ran most DF and PF BLMs, even some people in my own FC and LSs don't even use it in heavy movement fights.

the problem for min-maxers being that scathe is on gcd and a movement to avoid something often takes a second or less, leaving you standing around like a prat waiting to cast something else for what can seem like an eternity