Gridanian Religion vs Reality: How much do the Hearers really hear?

[FJerome]

(Alternate Title; "Hipster Moon Kitty wants to be where the Gridanians are So He Can Judge Them")

I think I mostly want to look at this from what it must look like from the Keepers' POV, with the Twin Adder propaganda of how the Hyur and the Elezen settled the forest together when the Miqo'te have been there all along as well without abiding by their rules.

A lot of what you can and can't do in Gridania is dictated by the Elementals as relayed by the Hearers and the whole system seems pretty open to abuse. The Green Wrath definitely seems to exist, there's enough evidence of it, but when only one or two people per settlement can actually hear the Elementals it's difficult to know if what the Hearers say are Elementals' orders actually are that. There's at least one pretty significant part of the main story-line where it seems like what they're proclaiming is petty personal agenda;

when the Hearer in Quarrymill refuses to extend medical aid to the sick Al Mhigan. Later on Buscarron provides medicine to heal the man and seems unconcerned by any angry elemental consequences and despite this act and his amicable relations with the Coeurlclaws and Redbellies Buscarron's Druthers has yet to be engulfed by the Green Wrath.

It may also be the case that the Elementals themselves aren't the unified force that the Gridanians treat them as. Spoilers for the whole White Mage quest-line;

The Adventurer, a promising Conjurer, gets sent by Brother E-Sumi-Yan to go assist Raya-O-Senna and A-Ruhn-Senna, the Elder Seedseer's younger siblings and fellow Padjal, who are about to perform a ritual to soothe the Guardian Tree. When you get there it turns out they were trying to do a three person ritual by themselves because the Elder Seedseer is too busy and they want to ease the burden on her. Which is sweet and all but 10 levels later and the Guardian Tree's still on the verge of wiping Gridania off the map and you're still nowhere near ready to fill her spot. How busy can Kan-E-Senna possibly freaking be? Or are you pinch-hitting because as the leader of Gridania she's actually the one who excited the Guardian Tree's wrath against the city but remains in charge because the rest of the Elementals wish her to be?

[Skies]

If you want further proof that the elementals themselves are not quite unified...
It is still the White Mage quest line, but the 1.xx one, which was different.

There, your job was still training in the arts of succor, but you were going to fly solo. Why? Because of Oha-Sok was the elemental whose cries would turn every other elemental into rage, he was the beginning of the end. Yet by your actions, as he had taken to observing you, he could be quelled, convinced the world was not beyond salvation.
Yet at the very end, Oha-Sok is already convinced, yet he cannot stop, because the other elementals wish it so. Yet it must be Oha-Sok to cry first, so the final trial is to pacify the other elementals, not Oha-Sok himself.

[Enkidoh]

Incidentally, a 'hearer' doesn't necessarily have to be a padj'al - a hearer is just a regular CNJ who is particularly sensitive to the whisperings of the elementals (the CNJ questline actually goes into detail about this -

E-Sumi Yan actually discovered Sylphie, who until then was stated as having had virtually zero talent in conjury, after she let go of her stubbornness and opened her mind to nature, had an uncanny ability to discern the voices of the elementals with unusual clarity, and hence stated with training she could definitely become a talented hearer for the Guild.

And the whole WHM questline in ARR also pretty much showed that being a padj'al isn't a requirement to commune with the elementals - a padj'al is just a hyur who was chosen by the elementals to serve as their emissary in Gridania's society - they're their proxy so to speak.

As for the power of the elementals, by the time of ARR, it has been stated repeatedly during Gridania's main storyline and sidequests that the power of the elementals definitely appears to be waning - the forest seems to be tolerating more and more violations of the elementals will (specifically, Ixal raids and poachers hunting illegally in the Shroud) - it's highly likely the physical damage to the forest caused by the Calamity (the Black Shroud was stated as having suffered some of the worst effects of Dalamud's impact) plus the aetheric disturbance due to it, has weakened the elementals severely. Hence why Gridania is so concerned about protecting things like Everschade (the Guardian Tree) and the Hedgetrees - they're pretty much the last pockets of elemental potency in the forest and for those to fall, well, the forest would probably fall too.

A telling case in point of this is the Hedge itself - in 1.0 it was stated as being virtually the whole reason Gridania could even exist - protecting the residents from the 'greenwrath', and the slightest damage or threat to the Hedge resulted in grave consequences for Gridania or anyone who was unlucky enough to be nearby at the time (such as the player at the start of Gridania's 1.0 storyline). However, by the time of ARR, apart from a brief mention in the Gridania opening, and the Hedgetrees scattered around the Shroud, the Hedge is barely seen to exist, at least, not in the way it was depicted in 1.0, suggesting that the power of it is broken, or at least weakened severely. In any event, I'm rambling again.

[HumsterMKX]

Gridania is kinda like proof that, controlling the messes by consistent fear, through a brunch of ppl hearing voices in their heads works.

The problem is not how much they hear, it is rather, how much the listeners understand what they hearing.

For all we know the quest at Quarrymill, the Hearer might not be hearing anything from the Elementals, she might just interpret it as "Well the elemental ain't saying sh!t, most likely it means don't help." Since, following nature's way of circle of life, has always been the Gridania way, so can't blame her for doing what so does.

The thought process of Hearers in Gridanian like this:

Elementals say Gridanians = ok to live here = ok to heal and help

Outsiders = not Gridanians = X = follow nature of life

Adventures = Helpful to Gridania = Ok to help = Elementals approve since Elementals say Gridianians ok to live here and anything at increases the odds of survival = ok

Kinda lame, but thats how the roll.

[Empressia]

well its a form of religion oppression so what did u expected? Still, im more curious of how much the elementals were weakened that they're not active as stated by many gridanian npc? Was the elemental's weakened state reduce their ability or sense to cross check the Hearer's honesty as to speak the elemental's will?

[Enkidoh]

Humster, I presume you didn't start in Gridania, as otherwise you would have seen that the elementals are not a story concoted by the government to keep the people in check - they not only exist but are extremely powerful even with the forest in such a weakened state. 1.0 showed in particular what happens to those who earn the ire of the elementals - one hapless boy who like you didn't believe they existed, set a Hedgetree on fire, which caused the elemental within to become so violent, it not only turned the boy into a living statue, but also sent a massive energy blast that knocked the LNCs ARCs and CNJs who had arrived too late to stop him off their feet. They ended up having no choice but to destroy the elemental, an act that was ultimately forgiven by the other elementals, but still carried a tragic price.

So yeah, the elementals are very real, and their will is final. Accepting the will of the elementals is the only reason Gridania even exists (originally, the elementals refused no one to enter the forest - both the elezen and the Ixal tried to settle, and were both driven out - the Ixal ended up settling in Coerthas while the elezen build a city underground called Gelmorra. It was only after the moogles interceded on the Gelmorrans behalf were people finally allowed to settle in the forest on the surface, which led to the founding of Gridania.

Because of this, everything the Gridanians do in the city has to be approved by the elementals first, hence the importance of the hearers who can speak with the elementals directly, and in particular, the padj'al, who effectively function as Gridania's government. To an outsider though, it's not hard to see why this might appear to be a sham - Gridanians have a reputation for being somewhat cold, aloof and even xenophobic, but after spending some time in the city, the actual existence of the elementals and thus the reasons for why Gridania is like that becomes apparent.

[FJerome]

The problem is not how much they hear, it is rather, how much the listeners understand what they hearing.

For all we know the quest at Quarrymill, the Hearer might not be hearing anything from the Elementals, she might just interpret it as "Well the elemental ain't saying sh!t, most likely it means don't help." Since, following nature's way of circle of life, has always been the Gridania way, so can't blame her for doing what so does.

The thought process of Hearers in Gridanian like this:

Elementals say Gridanians = ok to live here = ok to heal and help

Outsiders = not Gridanians = X = follow nature of life

Adventures = Helpful to Gridania = Ok to help = Elementals approve since Elementals say Gridianians ok to live here and anything at increases the odds of survival = ok

It could just be that the Elementals aren't actually as opinionated as the Hearers make them out to be and don't speak all that much, so half the time the Hearers are trying to guess what they want and this is their sort of thought process?

So yeah, the elementals are very real, and their will is final. Accepting the will of the elementals is the only reason Gridania even exists (originally, the elementals refused no one to enter the forest - both the elezen and the Ixal tried to settle, and were both driven out - the Ixal ended up settling in Coerthas while the elezen build a city underground called Gelmorra. It was only after the moogles interceded on the Gelmorrans behalf were people finally allowed to settle in the forest on the surface, which led to the founding of Gridania.

In the 2.0 Botanist Guild questline, Fufucha says that the Ixal actually did co-exist in the forest besides the Gridanians, long ago.

Because of this, everything the Gridanians do in the city has to be approved by the elementals first, hence the importance of the hearers who can speak with the elementals directly, and in particular, the padj'al, who effectively function as Gridania's government. To an outsider though, it's not hard to see why this might appear to be a sham - Gridanians have a reputation for being somewhat cold, aloof and even xenophobic, but after spending some time in the city, the actual existence of the elementals and thus the reasons for why Gridania is like that becomes apparent.

See, this is the reason I wanted to look at this from the non-Gridanian Keeper-of-the-Moon perspective because we don't get to see much of it in the game and yet they're living in the Shroud too. I'm starting to think that the reason they don't seem to worry as much about the Will of the Elementals is because they're actually taking far, far less from the Black Shroud and so are a lot less likely to draw down the Green Wrath. They're hunter-gatherers who live in small, nomadic settlements, that's a lot less taxing to forest than a big city with multiple satellite villages, farms, ranches and fortresses. Gridania's actually asking a great deal from the Shroud, that may be why they have to be so polite about it while the Miqo'te can "poach" with abandon with no real consequences. A few antelope here and there isn't much compared to, say, the amount of trees that must have been felled to build the Lavender Beds.

[Enkidoh]

In the 2.0 Botanist Guild questline, Fufucha says that the Ixal actually did co-exist in the forest besides the Gridanians, long ago.

I haven't levelled BTN yet so I wouldn't know, but that blatantly contradicts all previous information stated about the Ixal, stating that they woke the greenwrath before Gridania was settled and were driven out, which resulted in their long standing grudge towards Gridania, whom they regard as interlopers in their wood. Specifically, an early quest in Hyrstmill mentions this clearly. Considering Fufucha was something of a scatterbrain in 1.0, I'm liable to not take anything she says too seriously to be honest.

See, this is the reason I wanted to look at this from the non-Gridanian Keeper-of-the-Moon perspective because we don't get to see much of it in the game and yet they're living in the Shroud too. I'm starting to think that the reason they don't seem to worry as much about the Will of the Elementals is because they're actually taking far, far less from the Black Shroud and so are a lot less likely to draw down the Green Wrath. They're hunter-gatherers who live in small, nomadic settlements, that's a lot less taxing to forest than a big city with multiple satellite villages, farms, ranches and fortresses. Gridania's actually asking a great deal from the Shroud, that may be why they have to be so polite about it while the Miqo'te can "poach" with abandon with no real consequences. A few antelope here and there isn't much compared to, say, the amount of trees that must have been felled to build the Lavender Beds.

Well, firstly, there are clearly Moonkeepers living and working within Gridania itself, so you're making the mistake of regarding all Moonkeepers as thieves and brigands, which they're not. The official FFXIV website actually mentions this - that in recent years many Moonkeepers have been accepted into Gridanian society. I've seen a few Moonkeeper Wood Wailer and God's Quiver npcs for instance.

But the fact is, the poachers existence in the Black Shroud is actually illegal - the storyline clearly states this. The only reason they've been getting away with it is because the Wood Wailers and the God's Quiver are taxed for manpower as it is with the Ixal raids becoming more commonplace - hence why there's so many FATEs and battlecraft levequests in the Black Shroud that deal with deal with poaching - Gridania has no choice but to turn to adventurers to deal with the poaching problem.

As for the Lavender Beds, it was stated clearly that the elementals approved of it's construction, and as it is it's geography is still very natural - landscaping of it is at a minimum so it's not like they moved in with magitek bulldozers and razed the place.

[FJerome]

Well, firstly, there are clearly Moonkeepers living and working within Gridania itself, so you're making the mistake of regarding all Moonkeepers as thieves and brigands, which they're not.

That's why I specifically wrote "the non-Gridanian Keepers-of-the-Moon perspective".

But the fact is, the poachers existence in the Black Shroud is actually illegal - the storyline clearly states this. The only reason they've been getting away with it is because the Wood Wailers and the God's Quiver are taxed for manpower as it is with the Ixal raids becoming more commonplace - hence why there's so many FATEs and battlecraft levequests in the Black Shroud that deal with deal with poaching - Gridania has no choice but to turn to adventurers to deal with the poaching problem.

I know it's illegal but it's illegal because the Gridanians say it's illegal. Why should people who aren't Gridanian citizens follow the Gridanian laws? Everything we hear about how the Black Shroud works we hear ONLY from the Gridanians so we've got no real perspective on if the Elementals really regard it as poaching or it's just because there's some sort of quota about how many animals can be hunted overall and the Gridanians have declared it poaching because they don't want to have to cut back on their own hunting.

Why is it hunting if the Gridanians or their Adventurer allies are doing it but poaching if anyone else does?

We don't know because we never hear anyone else's view-point, only Gridania's.

[HumsterMKX]

*hands FJerome a darksteel foil hat*

I strongly believe we might be facing a "Elemental indoctrinated" individual.