ATMA is AWESOME, more Content like it please

[Raxion]

FFXI had many grinds like the Atma. Mechanics like that are the reason I played and enjoyed it for so long. If FFXIV:ARR were to adopt more grind-like mechanics, it would increase the longevity of content by boatloads.

While I'm not the biggest fan of FATEs, I did thoroughly enjoy gathering my 12 Atma. While some people complain about the grind, I think mechanics like this are 100% healthy for the game overall. I sincerely hope the devs weren't deterred from putting more grind mechnics into the game based on the forum response.

[Ddmk]

As far as I can tell alot don't mind grinding,its the fact that atmas are only obtainable from fates 95% of which you need to sync down for
It's boring/tedious/repetitive/unenjoyable content to a lot of people..
If it were a fixed target as stated above people would just get through it, as it stands with no set target people struggle to stay motivated

[Sessurea]

I There's no point in having 'Legendary' weapons if everyone can get them so easily. So I completely support you SE for adding this grindy content and hoping for more. Don't let the loud minority drown out the fact most people love it. Raiding fates reminded me of my FF11 days! Hope to see more content like it. I want to always feel the best gear I can get is always a distant goal, and not just 1 day away.

~ Koops

Ah one these FF11 ppl, always funny. "mind numbing depression inducing grind is a positive and good thing, I will spend money happily to roll rng dice, I am awesome. I hope every aspect of future ff14 progression involves whacking my head against a wall, I played ff11, im good at it =D"

[Stanelis]

Ah one these FF11 ppl, always funny. "mind numbing depression inducing grind is a positive and good thing, I will spend money happily to roll rng dice, I am awesome. I hope every aspect of future ff14 progression involves whacking my head against a wall, I played ff11, im good at it =D"

Even the legendary grind was more interesting in FF11, because you actually had to grind true meaningful content (dynamis was no cakewalk if unprepared at level 75). Plus the weapons were worth going through the trouble.

Which is not even the case in FFXIV.

[Sessurea]

I bet FF11 was indeed a good game, but I quiver away from it a little more with fear when I see people citing FF11 and saying atma is well designed in the same sentence.

[Bellybell]

because legendary weapons obtained through zerging amd luck is interesting

[Suellen]

snip

I appreciate the well thought out post. And I can understand your points and where you are coming from.

Even so I have to respectfully disagree on a few things. I don't think the zodiac quest chain was lazy/bad design. It was well thought out design based on the feedback that the player base had been given them. (or at least I can follow their thought processes). It was a design that ultimately was badly received by many though.

Two major feedback points the playerbase was giving SE was 1) relic’s are too easy to get and 2) there is a fundamental lack of open world content.

So they wanted to give relics a bit of a grind. There are two ways to add grind, RNG and token. You have pointed out the con in RNG systems which is a very valid con. But there are cons in token systems as well. I personally hate token grinds. Like I honestly HATE them.

So I guess I’ll just rant on why I hate token grinds. Firstly they make the game feel very monotonous. There is no anticipation no excitement no “did it drop?” moments. It’s just “God I have to do this 22 more times. Ugh.” Which leads to my second gripe. It makes the grind too transparent. When I’m not counting the grind in tokens I don’t notice it as much. I’m running dungeons or doing whatever gameplay without thinking about the long term time investment. I’m just playing. But with a token system the grand total is etched in Neon lights. It can make a task look far more daunting at the start which can be discouraging. You want me to do how many of these? Screw it.

So when it comes to token systems or RNG. I feel it’s very much a ymmv thing on which you prefer. There isn’t one is inherently better than the other. So imho the better design choice is to use a little of both. Which is exactly what we got in the zodiac weapon chain.

So back to the player feedback. The other major feedback point was lack of open world content. Well what is open world content. The game has established it as Fates/Leves/Mobs. And so that’s what the bulk of the zodiac quest entails. I know not everyone likes fates. But the game released with Fates being the core method of open world content. So it’s only logical that this would be the meat of the zodiac grind.

And so we have the Atma grind which everyone seems to hate. They thought ok the core component of our open world is fates. Let’s have the first stage be about fates. But we don’t want to overpopulate a zone so let’s spread it out and have them need to do fates in multiple zones. They then had to decide will this be the token grind or the RNG grind. Really they could have gone either way on this I guess but they went RNG. And I don’t see it as being that terrible of a choice.

To make an RNG grind take a significant length of time you need to have a low drop rate. But low drop rates also increase the con of RNG the large variability. To counter that some you have the collection of multiple items like say 12 in this case. This will shrink the standard deviation some lowering the variability. Now ultimate it didn’t lower it enough to prevent the rage on these forums apparently. I’d have to run the math to understand why but I haven’t done that nor will likely too as I just don’t have that much interest.

If they went the token route say do 100 fates per zone, then they’d want to do a more RNG route with the books. Maybe have them as rare drops in the new dungeons oh wait that’s not open world though. Well who knows but some kind of RNG drop either in dungeons or in the open world to collect. They likely made the choice they did as they wanted a nice sink for myth tomes with the books as phil tomes became pretty useless towards the end of its life span. And they wanted to counteract that happening with myth tomes some.

Sorry for the long winded post that many probably won’t read lol. But I honestly think SE did put a decent amount of thought into their Zodiac quest chain and the design had solid logic. It’s just hindsight is 20/20. Some tweaks may have made the design of the quests better received which is no doubt what they are discussing over right now as they delay the Novus update.

[Xaint]

snip

I think they will solve a lot of problems if they took the time to add FATEs for lvl 50+.The grinding will still be there, with the difficulty of the FATEs increased a lot. THEN, those who still complain 'should' really be in the minority.

Is it hard to do? Not really.

FATE type 1: Huge mob with huge HP and special moves + lots of aggro nearby. E.g. Chimera
FATE type 2: Lots of smaller mobs with lesser, but still effective moves + a Hugh aggro mob nearby (with nothing but huge hp to make sure that it can't be killed easily and will be there for the duration of the FATE).

Add a combination of the 2, times it by 3 or 4. Fill in the rest of the slots (out of the 12 atma areas) with your more basic FATEs.

Admittedly, they would probably want to add a cap on the RNG, in form of how many hours farmed per FATE. This way, "some but not absolute" light can be seen by the player, knowing that he's going somewhere:

1. Every FATE still has the RNG for drop.
2. On top of that another RNG for the hours afterwchich a player will definitely get the drop. Set the RNG to go between say 8-10 hours. This will induce a certain level of progress while retaining the RNG factor.

What we need to keep in mind is that grinding low level FATEs is still grinding, contrary to what some might believe. HOWEVER, it's not the optimal form of grinding for players with ilvl well beyond 80s.

As for those who loved XI, so did I; but for those who claimed that XI had the same kind of grind, I have to disagree (and not respectfully to that end). I do not recall any grind that I have been in where there isn't a shred of danger, HNM, Sky, Dyanmis, even exp. I didn't have to kill flies in valkurm dunes 100 times for relics.

For the open world content that you mentioned, Suellen, I think there's a fundamental difference in the definition of 'open world content'. Is "kill 3 chickens and give me their eggs" sort of leves or FATE open world? The answer is a resounding YES.

I am however, of the opinion that those who actually used the term 'open world content' has something quite different in their minds. It's not our business as players to understand what other players want, but IT DEFINITELY is what the developer's responsibility, to figure what the majority and minority players want, define those wants clearly with a solid basis of who those majority/minority players are.

So far, I don't see much of that. Hopefully soon, I will.

For the last part, going for other weapon routes are not feasible for some without groups, me for instance lost an entire FC and had to join another. This is why the zodiac weapons are so important as it's the only weapon that one can solo for, while those with groups can go for the other 3 routes, levi ex, weathered and high allagan.

Do ppl with no group need anything more than what they have for dungeon grinds? No, but that's not the point. The point is to keep as many players interested in the game for as long as possible. If that's what they want, then find a way. If they are the minority, then try satisfy them after the majority. That, however, is the Dev's job. Harsh, but true.

[alhandra]

all these posters screaming for the atma to get nerfed just sound like a bunch of spoiled little children who are angry someone has nicer toys than them

didnt you parents teach you that jealousy isnt a pretty emotion?