The Monk Temple Reborn

[Ricdeau]

lol some people are so funny. Look, ill be blunt with some of you. If you cant do 600 dps on a dummy as a maxed out monk, then you are not a solid monk. Up your gear or up your rotation. Period.

No one was arguing about getting 600 DPS on a dummy. You said monks average 650 which isn't true. For a 4 minute dummy run with no party/food/pots you will get around 600. With party/food/pots you will see that increase to probably closer to 630. 650 is not the average people are getting on 4 minute parses, but more of an extreme high with good crits. You keep mentioning evidence but you have supplied nothing but bold claims, and are arguing with the people that came up with both sets of weights are you arguing for and against.

[Hakmatic]

I can't take it any more boys.

[Dervy]

Hakmatic, edit your post bro. Mods actually browse DPS forums now haha! don't want people getting banned around here. Need you all for Heavensward.

[Hakmatic]

lol I almost dont even care

[PROBOUND]

The ignorance is REAL! LMAO

[whiskeybravo]

Just a thought I had while reading truedragon through confusion.. I don't know if this is relevant or not but:

If you just change the stat weights, (3:1 det vs 2:1 det), it doesn't translate to a 30% dps increase. For example, using the stat weights a monk (or drg) with 380 det (minus 202 base) used to be 178 * .325 = ~57 points of strength. The same det with a different weight say 178 * .47 = ~83 strength. But the DPS doesn't magically change to reflect a 30 strength increase.

I think this is kind of the root of the problem you guys are working on, and thinking about it just confused me some, I wonder if that's what truedragon is getting hung up on. It's all above my head either way, so I'll let an expert explain if it's worthy of explanation lol

[Dervy]

The only thing that has changed is the mathematics. It's not "oh look we found new evidence of AP*DET scaling so now all jobs must magically deal 1000dps but not per second".

All myself and Sunny have done is corrected a previous misconception of Determination and gathered more accurate measurements of how it works. That's all that has happened, nothing more.

Stat-weights shouldn't be used to calculate DPS, as every job has different set-weights. The bard is the highest weighted class in the game, but does that mean it's the #1 DPS? In truedragons logic, yeah, Bard should be highest DPS and we should stack bards and 1 blm for LB. It's all relative value based off your primary damaging stats.

I understand they're WoW links, but the concept is exactly the same. I suggest anyone who's still held up about weights to give these a read:

http://blog.askmrrobot.com/2013/02/h...-stat-weights/
http://www.wowhead.com/help=stat-weighting
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6689600260

Stat-Weights =/= Stat-Equivalency

[Truedragon]

Just a thought I had while reading truedragon through confusion.. I don't know if this is relevant or not but:

If you just change the stat weights, (3:1 det vs 2:1 det), it doesn't translate to a 30% dps increase. For example, using the stat weights a monk (or drg) with 380 det (minus 202 base) used to be 178 * .325 = ~57 points of strength. The same det with a different weight say 178 * .47 = ~83 strength. But the DPS doesn't magically change to reflect a 30 strength increase.

I think this is kind of the root of the problem you guys are working on, and thinking about it just confused me some, I wonder if that's what truedragon is getting hung up on. It's all above my head either way, so I'll let an expert explain if it's worthy of explanation lol

Ill explain why the dps doesnt magically increase. The reason is because for each piece of gear you use for your characters it only gives you 2 secondary stats. Its always either acc, sks, crit or det.
Right? And from all your choices, the one you pick only gives you 2 of those stats. This means that for a piece of gear with det + other stat, you automatically lose the other 2 stats. This is what I said about sacrifices.
Now lets look at stat weights. sks and crit are both weighted around .2. Lets just use .2 on both for simplicity purposes. You stack up on det, your sks and crit automatically suffer. BUT because det is weighted higher, net result is you gain. Still following me?
Now the issue at hand here, is what det is really valued at. If det is .33, than for every point, you are net gaining .33-.2 = 0.13
Thats why you dont notice a huge increase in dps immediately.

However, if DET is actually weighted 0.57, then the net gain for every point would actually be 0.57-0.2 = .37
As you can see there is a huge difference. For this much net gain, you should naturally also see a huge dps increase for which there is no evidence. Thats why I asked for higher dps parses because all these people who magically believe these too good to be true det weights cant provide the higher dps gain. For smart people, like myself, its very simple. The evidence isnt there but apparently I struck a cord somewhere.

You are very correct in stating that the changing the weight from .33 to .572 did not lead to a dps increase assuming all other stats remain the same. The answer to this statement is very simple: det weight is not .572, thats why we dont see the dps increase.

No doubt the .33 is not correct either but anything above .4 doesnt add up from a pure crafting standpoint. I melds shit all the time and the monk disparity using new stat weights told me something is off. Very simple. Using old stat weights, no prob. Using new weights, shit goes through the roof. Highly unlikely that that is correct. People said no I am wrong. Well, I will admit Im wrong when real data shows the dps increase from DET.

Its doable. Just get a monk using base str 640-660 whatever the current str is. Check for average dps. Use same monk with det stacked. Check dps. Account for loss of dps from losing other stats (thats why the det difference must be high) and we can check the real value of det for that current str build. I could do this but I dont feel like spending hours and hours collecting data of which the end result I already know.

Stat-weights shouldn't be used to calculate DPS, as every job has different set-weights. The bard is the highest weighted class in the game, but does that mean it's the #1 DPS? In truedragons logic, yeah, Bard should be highest DPS and we should stack bards and 1 blm for LB. It's all relative value based off your primary damaging stats.

Stat-Weights =/= Stat-Equivalency

stats weight are used to measure dps indirectly. They were originally created to compare different gear because without it, how would you know which piece of gear is the better piece. However, by labelling a piece the "better", we are already indrectly using stat weights to measure dps. Because why else label something "better" if it doesnt actually improve your game, your dps. I already told you this yesterday but apparently you are a slow reader.

There is NO POINT in using stat weights to determine which piece is better if that said piece does not actually lead to a dps increase.

Stat weights has nothing to do with Brd. Bard is the lowest weighted class in the game, wtf you talking about with highest weighted class. stat weights dont just consist of det, crit, and sks!! Brd weapon dmg and Brd dex are the lowest weighted and this results in brd having the lowest output. If brd dex actually scales the same way as str for melees, they would be doing the highest dps. But it isnt. It doesnt scale better. It is the opposite. You know nothing about other classes.

[Viridiana]

However, if DET is actually weighted 0.57, then the net gain for every point would actually be 0.57-0.2 = .37

Except that this still isn't true. You're completely ignoring that DET costs more as a stat on gear in order to try to make your math work.

Brd weapon dmg is the lowest weighted and this results in brd having the lowest output. You know nothing about other classes. Maybe stick to drg.

And that's a complete lie. BRD weights I see have WD in the 9.x range, where casters are in the 6.x range. But that's cool, it's not like anyone's gonna fact check your claims.

[Dervy]

You're talking to the person who MADE the 2.2, 2.4, 2.45 stat-weights and most recently, the latest BRD weights when I collaborated with MrYaah AND DET finding stat-weights. I was also actively around when EasyModeX made the 2.0, 2.1 weights. The same weights you use in your all-mighty ariyala gear solver (which is subpar) you used to gear up. They're from me. The ONLY Job I've not worked on is the BLM.

I know what I'm talking about.