No changes to ATMA?

[eagledorf]

Gotta say I have no idea why people brag about doing a very simple farm wrong. Think about it, the only thing that makes FATEs appear quicker is quickly doing FATEs. So if you're not Zerging fates in a group and utilizing best practices you're essentially doing the Atma grind wrong.

Because, I set it up like this and cook dinner. Then I go to another and set the table. Then I go to another and do some work or something. I spent almost none of that time actually playing the game, but I'm still farming FATEs. This means that during the time spent actually in front of the computer I can do other things (or farm FATEs more intensely if that's what I want to use my game time on)

@Welsper59

The problem for me with the Atma system is that I get my enjoyment in FFXIV from cooperative gameplay. I actually do enjoy doing FATEs (and certainly enjoy downing coil or doing dungeons with a random party) when it's just a few new players in a zone since it feels like an accomplishment, but swarming them in our relics does not. For me, raiding is about the group downing something, not about the RNG reward at the end (and this is why I like the Myth/Sol system and love the Sands of Time and Unidentified Tomestones, non-RNG based rewards for the entire group eventually comes just from doing the content. Farming it is missing the point in my opinion). Back in in the day this might have meant waking that Dragon that can only be killed once on your server until somebody resets it or camping that monster that spawns once every x-hours while in FFXIV it's much less brutal (and in my opinion much better if you happen to have a life), but ultimately there is enjoyment outside of rolling the dice on gear.

FATE party members come and go too quickly for a sense of group accomplishment (if anything, there is only resentment when somebody gets an Atma), FATEs themselves are mindless content, there is no lore whatsoever why a killer of gods is killing a bunch of monkeys in order to get this crystallized whatever, and during busy server times there is almost no social interaction within the party as FATEs are constantly popping. To me it effectively sounds like you're arguing that FATE grinding is ok despite the lack of any merit to the actual content because RNG makes it effectively akin to pulling the lever on a slot machine where our time sunk is so great that we're stuck just like a gambler that's just converted their rent money into tokens. I suppose some people do get a thrill out of gambling, but I personally don't see how this could ever be considered good.

[Worm]

Because, I set it up like this and cook dinner. Then I go to another and set the table. Then I go to another and do some work or something. I spent almost none of that time actually playing the game, but I'm still farming FATEs. This means that during the time spent actually in front of the computer I can do other things (or farm FATEs more intensely if that's what I want to use my game time on)

I guess I understand, though I hope you weren't one of the people going "300 hours in Central Shroud and no drop ><".

[Jinko]

They are still looking at feedback from what I can gather based on the dev letter, so expect changes in the next patches.

[Vondoomervil]

Oh stop whining, Its a damn game.

[Zephyranthes]

They didn't acknowledge issues with the current system. The change they mentioned is for the Novus part of the quest thus it was delayed.

[Syrellaris]

@DoubleT

I am not saying a Grind perse is a bad thing, it is the way it is done with RNG that is the issue at this point. If we had a clear goal in say do 750 fates I would have no issues with it. There would be grinding, there would be time investment and for some it will be fun, for others it won't. A fair compromise if you ask me. However when RNG as it is now is in the cornor it just isn't all that fair. As others already explained in more detail, one could farm for weeks hours on end and get maybe 1 atma, while another could farm 1 day and get all 12. That to me and many others isn't fun as there is no clear goal.

@Asael,

I personally have no issues with those solutions as to me that is fun. Which is why I play games on the hardest difficulty, retry difficult encounters in games till I can do them etc. But I will agree with you on that there will always be people complaining about things, and thus so people will also complain about those solutions you posted.


@Welsper59

I get what you are trying to say however I feel that just because RNG is a Traditional System and used in many games, it does not automatically mean it is a good system. I also don't fully agree with you on this part. "It's not fun for you? Good, that's essentially the point."

[Welsper59]

@Welsper59

I get what you are trying to say however I feel that just because RNG is a Traditional System and used in many games, it does not automatically mean it is a good system. I also don't fully agree with you on this part. "It's not fun for you? Good, that's essentially the point."

Sorry, bit of a wall-o-text here but: The system itself doesn't have to be "good". What's good and bad is subjective to the audience that it's intended for. That's why we have diversity in genres. Not everything about one genre will attract any given person. But genres have things that it sticks to in order for it to be... part of that genre. MMORPGs, or RPGs in general, will always incorporate RNG. It's just part of the way it works. Some people may try to get away from it entirely... but it won't last very long.

When we know when to expect something and exactly how we get it, things become stale. We might stick around for a little while, but we'll just grow bored faster. It's a bit of a gamble these days, but that's just how it is. Take pro sports for example. What if the outcomes were revealed beforehand. We knew who was going to win and how. Would we still be interested? For the most part no. We might watch highlight moments... but definitely not gonna stick around long. There's no excitement in the moment that a team wins/loses. Likewise, there's no impressionable excitement in the moment you get the item you're wanting when you know it's going to happen.

That ties in with the "not fun" remark I made. We go through burdens to reap rewards. Because of those burdens, we have a greater attachment to the reward itself. If we were guaranteed something, regardless of means (simply mailed to you, complete 50 FATEs, or required killing twintania 20 times), the reward itself doesn't have as much meaning on the individual level. Think of myth farming... fun, right? /sarcasm

If you have to spend time on a guaranteed reward, it'll just be boring. You know when to expect it, so the in-between offers nothing more than tedium because... you can't lose and nothing is ever different/unexpected. There's no potential for disappointment when you're guaranteed formulaic progress. A negative feeling, like disappointment, is not always a bad thing (within reason).

MMORPGs are about the feeling, not just the digital reward (and short-term excitement). It's a very huge reason why MMOs gained mainstream popularity. The players developed an attachment for the game they played (and often, it was just one MEMORABLE game). Not only did they love playing with friends/others, but they also grew an attachment to their character and progression. Maybe I'm too old minded and the idea of attachment is outdated and worthless to the new generation, that it's all about the pig happiness (immediate/expected reward), but attachment is one of the reasons that this game even exists. And in many ways, RNG is responsible for that. I'm not saying RNG was the perfect choice for Atma, but what I am saying is that RNG (as a system) is not flawed.

[skaterger]

snip

Beautifully and eloquently written, wished I could like the post more than once. Nice to see there are still some old school rpgers around amidst the crowd of "I must get rewarded something for every second of time I put into the game!" players. I've tried to explain something similar to what you wrote and have been called a troll, masochist, basement dweller and douche among others.

I much preferred the atma portion of the quest than the books. I'm only into book 3 and I'm already quickly losing interest. Each book will take me around 5-7 days to get because of the limited time I have to play as well as time I need to raid with my static. There is no chance for me to get "lucky" like in the atma portion where I farmed for 8 hours for 1 before getting the next in 15 minutes. The books are a chore, and the fates where you have to stand around for hours doing nothing makes it worse. Sadly, I can't see any end in sight. I would go so far as to say that rng is a very good solution to a grind as it breaks the monotony.

Some of the most fun times I had while playing rpgs are directly predicated on rng. In some older games, there are some mobs that have a very small percentage of 1 shotting you even if you wore the best armor in game. It happened rarely but we all had a good laugh about it when it happened. In another mmo, there was this upgrade system where you could affix upgrades to your weapon not unlike the materia system in ffxiv. The catch is as you upgrade your weapon progressively, the chance of success goes down until it hits 10% or so. Should it fail, the weapon breaks and you lose everything you invested. Should it succeed though, you might be the only player on your server to have that weapon and it might be worth 600 million gil or so (in ffxiv terms). So its really a personal choice as to how much a risk taker you are. This sure beats everyone walking around in full allagan/myth gear and looking the same and having the same stats, aside from glamour. Needless to say, these kind of rng will never be implemented into games today because of how expectations of gamers have evolved today.

[Syrellaris]

snip.

Oh no worries about walls of text haha

I have to fully agree with you on the fact that things get stale and boring when you know exactly what to expect, but my problem is not with the RNG system in its own, it's with the way it is incorporated into Atma's. See, I am an old school RPGér, I grew up with playing Pen and Paper Dungeons and Dragons and yes the game had RNG, however it was mostly limited to a D20 with a D6 or so attached to it. a D100 was hardly never used, let alone stand percentage base and each roll had pretty much an outcome whether they be bad or good.

With Atma's that system is Percentage based and has 2 outcomes. All or nothing. and honestly, to me that isn't fun. The RNG in Dungeons is not bad for me because in there even if it is the same as the fates, you get the fun of doing the dungeons, talking to other players etc. In fates, I feel as if I am staring at a constant blue circle spamming a single attack since most are in low level zones and repeat that till something drops.

Though regardless, I am not really bitching about it for myself. I am at 6/12 and I will continue till I get them, since I like loot but I can relate to the frustrations others might have with the system. Specially those constantly pulling at the short end of it.

Also, very nice written post and for the most part, I agree with it. Thank you

[Ddmk]

I've spent over 100 hours and still only have 4 atmas they need a slight boost to drop rate or a alternative method to obtain them...
Don't get me wrong I like to grind,but repeating low level content on a rng drop sucks