Level cap increase every 1-2 years.

[Shipp]

There are pros and cons to both sides, but I personally prefer horizontal growth by a longshot. I could never stand WoW's constant updates, especially when they're so extreme. Going from 80 to 85 essentially made your character 5x stronger. That's completely ridiculous and it does invalidate everything else the developpers have worked on before. If it wasn't for the achievement system, most people wouldn't bother running any of these old instances ever again. The people who run them for leveling purposes are usually just leeching off a higher character and not experiencing them as they were meant to be.

It's not like everything is perfect for WoW either. I remember reading a few months ago that their numbers we're down significantly since the launch of Cataclysm, because there was not enough content, and whatever there was was way too easy to accomplish. I quit about two weeks after it came out, and my Druid was raid ready, had all his professions to 525 including Archeology, had all the quests of every new zones completed and was essentially out of new content outside of the raids, which I feel no reason to do as everything they drop will be obsolete a few months later when they release a new update.

Most people complaining about WoW's raid content weren't actually fully clearing it. Just like it always happens. Though content was delayed by quite a bit. Firelands is picking it back up though. I took over 3 months off from WoW since Cata, so I'm far from a white-knight.

Two weeks after launch, there was no possible way your druid had done every new quest, plus gotten all of your reps to exalted, plus got your guild to level 25, plus bought all of the guild rewards, plus got exalted with Tol Barad through all of the dailies, and then cleared all of the available raids. People over-exaggerate the lack of content from Cata, and it's largely moot at this point. Patches are coming slower, but for people on an XIV message board, it's quite ironic to hear complaints over WoW's slow patches.

600,000 people have left WoW for many reasons. By the way, 80-85 was not supposed to feel like a 5 level increase, it was supposed to feel like a 10 level increase. The devs stated that many times before Cata was launched. Many of the reasons people left were bugs not being fixed during the Beta (deja vu), we STILL have a BG queue bug that the devs don't even mention anymore as if it's just going to fix itself, healing changes made pugs a pain in the ass to heal, because people, 7 months later, still don't understand the simple concept of, "Perhaps I should move out of the fire." Seriously, I pulled a tank with Leap of Faith OUT of the lightning forcefield in Vortex Pinnacle and he ran back in it to tank the mobs there... where magic does 0. This is after we told him to move them out of it long before I lifegripped him.

A lot of PvP players on those servers have left too since now they're not even somewhat safe from 1-60 since you can fly wherever you want. One of the lead devs, and several of the code monkeys have been transferred to Titan, their new MMO. The two remaining lead devs apparently have no clue as to what is going on. Ghostcrawler plays a mage, and coming from a mage, we are ridiculously OP in everything except arena. A frost mage not only can lock down players (as have we always), but we can do insane damage now as well.

The 600,000 didn't leave because of a level cap increase.

I much prefer a system that doesn't obsolete everything else. Sky still had plenty of relevant gear by the time Abyssea came out. It might not have been the "cream of the crop" in many cases, but that didn't make it completely worthless to anyone who didn't have hundreds of hours to pour into HNM camping or Salvage. Byakko's Haidate, Kirin's Osode, Wyrm Leggings, Wyrm Gloves, Shura Togi, etc all still had very regular uses for many classes. It might not have been "hardcore" to do for people deep into endgame like I was, but I still enjoyed going back and helping more casual friends obtain their gear and showing them the ropes of endgame.

This list of sky gear keeps becoming longer and longer. I'm wondering here, how many items were out post-sky that were NEARLY just as good as those items, but those might have had +1 - +3 better stats? Min-maxers are not the majority of the MMO community, that's easy enough to see in WoW, who holds the majority of said community.

Plus every expansion brought with it new zones and content designed not only for hardcore endgame players, but for people still in the process of leveling and for casual players as well. I never felt like the game was stagnating, it always felt like it was ever expanding, and even leveling new jobs brought new experiences, as old camps got replaced by new ones. But even those older "obsolete" camps were still viable options for those who wished to avoid camping on top of 4 other parties and who didn't mind a challenge that no colibri could ever offer.

Seriously? This is just not true once you hit the 50's after ToAU. The ONLY reason people didn't TP burn colibris was because they were either over camped or you were in a mage-heavy party. Older camps might not have been obsolete, but they weren't far from it. Mages -were- obsolete come ToAU. "We don't need a WHM, we have a BRD." "We don't need a RDM, we have a BRD." "We don't need a BLM, we're doing TP burns, lolSC." "We don't need a SMN, we're doing TP burns, and we have a BRD."

I do think they made mistakes. I never liked the melee-burning trend that TOAU brought. I wish they would have found ways to expand crafting as well, outside of releasing new ingredients and recipes once in a while. Synergy always felt too complicated and mostly pointless. And I hate Abyssea and the Trial of the Magians path the developpers chose to go with, but it was a blessing for more casual players I guess, even if it ruined the game for me.

I'd agree that Abyssea was probably the ruining factor of the game, though ToAU carved the way to that path with TP burns. When I went back the last time and participated in a Kor Tunnel SMN-burn, I logged out after and canceled. It was fun, however it too helped ruin the game.

I guess my point is that FFXI proved there was no real need for constant level cap raises, that it was possible to keep putting out new content and storylines and challenging bosses without invalidating everything that came before it. Sadly I think XIV is still a long, long way from ever achieving greatness no matter if it goes for horizontal or vertical progression.

The thing I'm not quite understanding with people in favor of horizontal progression is this. All of you, that I have seen, have admitted that things went horribly wrong prior to Abyssea, around the time of ToAU. Do you ever stop to think that while older content might be saved from death, horizontal progression is the reason why after CoP, XI took a turn for the worst? Not raising a cap every expac is fine. Every other expac would be fine with me. That gives you two expansions to run content. However WoW, nor any other level progression MMO has faced these woes that FFXI did. Seems the thing separating them is a difference in horizontal vs vertical. Perhaps horizontal progression might make some players feel as though their time hasn't been wasted on gear obtained, but it leads to its own set of problems exclusive to -not- raising the cap. This would come down to what is the lesser of two evils. 1) Feeling as though your hardwork has been invalidated when the next expansion hits. 2) Completely screwing over half of the necessary classes for endgame on the actual way TO endgame and forcing players to run 6+ year old content if they want any chance to compete in a min-max environment.

As I've said, every MMO has its min-maxers. FFXI treated it as a lifestyle. In WoW, I gem and enchant my gear, and I reforge now in Cata. I also might have a haste set or a mastery set, depending on the fight and my spec. When you spend more time actually changing armor than you do playing the game, that's a big problem to me. That is a direct result of stacking so much situational gear into the game instead of out-right upgrades. And equipment swapping was not difficult, before someone says that takes more skill. All it takes is one look at forums to figure out what piece of gear is the most effective for which ability, you macro it, and then you forget it.

Just food for thought.

[Shipp]

ok


Because it's not about whether the new weapon is better or worse it's about the actual stats and effects it contains. If one endgame hat has 4dex and 7str and another eg hat has 7dex and 4str which is better? which is worse? Neither one of those hats is better or worse than the other assuming it has no other stats. Now in a system where one of these hats came out under a shorter level cap the higher level hat lets say its the first one would have something like 6dex 10str vs 7dex 4str.

Clearly the 'option' is slowly being taken away from me as the ranks separate.

But here's the thing, you now have 2 hats that are situational. Not everyone cares about that. Also factor in how many different combos of hats you're going to have for every single job you level. Inventory issues. This is only hats, apply that to every single item slot, especially when it's crap like Carby mitts that are only used when he is summoned, or the equipment that SAYS it increases SMN damage, but we really will never know for sure since it's so random in the first place, or if we should stack 2 different slots that say +Avatar damage, or do we swap them in right before a BP? Do they even work with BPs or is it just their melee damage?

See where I'm going with this? So much of the stats were hidden (and are currently the same way in XIV) that you never truly know if the gear is even worth having in the first place. This leads to pokemon-syndrome when it comes to gear. A set for resting, a set for regaining MP while moving, a set for casting, a set for casting this other spell, a different staff for every single spell, a set that you macro in depending on the weather. A set that you macro in depending on the day, etc etc. It gets very tedious and is completely ridiculous after so many "side-grades". Your hat example is nice and simple. I don't know about Dex and Str, but I remember 1 point of int is equal to x amount of damage per tier of nuke. Simple formula. Side-grades work when that's it. They don't work when you have hidden stats alluded to on gear that you wouldn't be told of otherwise except through an equally useless merit system (when it came to certain jobs). I, personally, prefer a straight up upgrade so I am not forced to buy something with RL money just to increase my inventory space because I'm already at the cap. On my BLM, I had something like 40 freaking pieces of gear that I had to carry with me for endgame. 40 pieces! That is not acceptable, I'm sorry. I don't care how many arguments are used in favor of it, that is simply a very flawed system.

Can you even gear swap mid-fight in XIV? I haven't tried it. If you can't, then this is even more reason as to why side-grades like I've mentioned wouldn't work.

Now you can say that they can add as many options as the want in every cap raise, and they can. However, there is clearly only so much they can do at some point someone is going to want some stat that isn't around under the new the cap. So what? they can wear the old gear anyway right? wrong, the game mechanics dictate now that the new gear is so necessary that they are gimp without it then they really don't have a choice as above all no one wants to be gimp.

In all my years of MMOs, I have never heard anyone but FF players use the word "gimp". "Gimp" to an FFXI player was not having the +1 staves for a BLM and SMN. Gimp was not having very situational macro pieces, such as certain SMN af2. Gimp was not having mahatma slops instead of errant (I think was the name?) or Serawhatevers, because there was a 1 or 2 point difference in stats.

If players are going to already impose their ridiculous standards on people, I hardly see how SE upping a cap and giving that new gear similar itemization is going to hurt.

The game mechanics im referring to are the same mechanics all mmos share. Base stats go up with levels and without sufficient base stats a person will wipe before they have a chance to effect an outcome. Like a naked player, rank 50 is 30 gear is usually gimp.


I don't understand why you assume that having a longer standing level cap means you have the same content. You can add content without increasing the level cap so your point is moot. It's not the 1 more str im after, it's the option of different stats it's not all about str, or dex or vit sorry to say.

Quite right, those invisible stats that really had no way of being measured (at least SMNs didn't) are so worth chasing for the majority of MMO players. You can also increase the level cap without it being as extreme as WoW where 10 more levels means 10x the stats.

Becoming stronger doesn't negate content that is not my concern at all. The way you negate content is by making it so there is no reason (no progression in it) to do it. Besides just doing it for the heck of it. I don't care if the mob dies quick or slow that is not the point i'm making here. Killing a rank 90 goblin headman (or w.e) may be the most challenging thing ig right now but there's very little reason to do it so it is likely that no one will experience it.

Here's the thing, there was no challenge left in sky after ToAU. The challenge was gone. The CHALLENGE and fun should be the defining factor on whether it is relevant or irrelevant. Otherwise content becomes nothing but a chore for gear.

If there is different gear in different content for people to choose from then there are options and every option is relevant content to that particular individual. When there are less options then there is less relevant content.

Again, I bring up the argument of enchanting recipes from older raids in WoW that are STILL used. Does this mean that the level 70 raid is still relevant, just because it DROPS relevant recipes for a specific person? No. If you answer yes, then you really have no argument against vertical progression in the first place.

Recipes were added over the years so the same 100 crafters had new things to make. AND yet, they still had a demand the old stuff as it was still relevant to certain individuals hence there was more total things to do. Making someone level again doesn't inherently give them anything significantly new to do, just like you can add content without increasing cap you can add recipes. moot point.


Probably the only productive thing in this post. If I could thumbs up in sections then I would. The only thing that concerns me is that in the long run you're talking about lots of upgrades if a buccaneers shirt has to be upgraded as many times as there have been level cap increases then somewhere along the way we run the risk of having people complain about how inconvenient it is and push for a simplification that would kill content.

I actually do like this idea myself, if only to appease those who are so livid over a vertical progression model. It's much the same way how gear is upgraded in WoW, only those pieces only stay relevant within that expac.

[Shipp]

Oh I'm sorry i didn't realize I was talking to a business expert. Where did you get your degree? Is it relevant to the game industry? MMOS? Please elaborate, I need to know your credentials to assume that your knowledge is at all credible.

So list out all the pros and cons for vertical progression, and guaranteed that i've already explained in this post why I prefer a more horizontal method (not at all speaking exclusively). From a a total amount of options/diversity perspective.

She listed several pros. Try to think of the average MMO player. SE is not going to cave to the requests of the hardcores, because they don't make up the majority of the MMO crowd.

I still have not seen pros for horizontal progression laid out in an unbiased manner. Obviously Auction Girl likes vertical. She has listed actual unbiased arguments for it though, as have several others. The only thing I see from horizontal people is, "XI did it so it's fine." XI also had several problems, which just about every person arguing for horizontal has admitted.

I think too many people are looking at this strictly from the perspective of XI and not looking at it objectively. If you increase level caps gradually over the game's life, endgame is not going to be tuned to take forever like it was in XIV. You might have rare world spawns, but it's not going to be the defining factor of endgame if content is tuned correctly, and they certainly won't be on the BS spawn timers that they were in XI. This means that you will not have to grind for possibly years to obtain your gear. Sure, your feeling of accomplishment might be lower than it was in XI, but let's actually think about this for a minute. I don't play a video game to feel accomplished in life. I understand having accomplishments in a video game and being proud. I'm not saying you shouldn't have anything to feel proud about. I'm saying too much emphasis is being placed on that feeling of accomplishment in comparison to your real life, at least in XI. I played XI during highschool and part of college. I freely admit that I had no life in highschool. XI was my escape. Yes, it was quite an accomplishment getting all of that gear that I spent months of /played to get. Fast-forward 8 years and I, along with many who started on XI, simply do not have the time anymore. We have grown up, we have real life issues to deal with, and our number one priority is not to go slay some dragons for the 100th time to make sure everyone has every possible drop from that dragon.

You can easily have hardcore content that doesn't require years to complete. Why anyone wants a system like XI's is beyond belief. I am not left in the dust in other MMOs, because I do not -have- to complete every single raid if I can't log on for a couple months. I can go pick up some newly released gear that is an upgrade and catch up to the hardcore players. This wasn't possible in any timely fashion in XI. It punished players who started late. Need something from sky? Go pull some teeth from linkshell members until they finally come help you, if they're not too busy doing new content which totally "doesn't" make this place you need gear from look out-dated in the least.

[Bruknar]

Two weeks after launch, there was no possible way your druid had done every new quest, plus gotten all of your reps to exalted, plus got your guild to level 25, plus bought all of the guild rewards, plus got exalted with Tol Barad through all of the dailies, and then cleared all of the available raids. People over-exaggerate the lack of content from Cata, and it's largely moot at this point. Patches are coming slower, but for people on an XIV message board, it's quite ironic to hear complaints over WoW's slow patches.

I was going off the top of my head, but after looking at my armory, I got the game on the 8th of December, on the 16th I got Loremaster of Cataclysm and on the 31st I got Exalted with Tol Barad, which was the last Cataclysm related achievement I got before quitting a few days later. At that point I was already playing sporadically, which I kept doing mostly fishing in Dalaran till the 8th of January. So I achieved what I wanted out of Cataclysm in 3 weeks essentially. I'm exalted with Therazane, and I'm at least Revered with every other Cata reputation except Earthen Ring. I am not in a guild, nor do I care for guild levels or guild rewards.

I'm not complaining about the slow patches, if anything WoW is actually fairly fast at putting out content compared to XI or XIV. I complain at launching new expansions that completely obsolete older content with barely enough content to keep players busy for a month. And what's left once you've gone through most of that content? Grinding! Grinding for rep, grinding for gear, grinding for gold. The difference in my mind is that all that rep you're grinding for? Yeah in a year it'll have been a complete waste of time outside of that little star in your achievement book.

The 600,000 didn't leave because of a level cap increase.

Maybe not all of them. But more have for that reason than because of getting PKed on PvP servers I'm pretty sure. Not much can be done about stupid players who refuse to learn the mechanics, but all games have those. It's true Druid healing was hurt pretty bad when the expansion launched, but I simply switched to a Feral build and enjoyed the content that way. Heroics were still manageable, and actually enjoyable because they were somewhat challenging.

This list of sky gear keeps becoming longer and longer. I'm wondering here, how many items were out post-sky that were NEARLY just as good as those items, but those might have had +1 - +3 better stats? Min-maxers are not the majority of the MMO community, that's easy enough to see in WoW, who holds the majority of said community.

There were a lot of items that were just as good, or maybe slightly better depending on the situation. Were they easier to obtain though? Not really. Sky was accessible, fairly easy, not all that time consumming, and it dropped gear that could build a solid basis for pretty much any job in the game. Min-maxers had other options they could choose to pursue if they wished, sure. But for the average guy without 5 nights a week to put on a game, Sky was a wonderful end game activity that let them acquire gear that could greatly improve any "stock" AH character. Nyzul Isle in my mind was a continuiation of that mindset. Give solid gear that may not be the "best", but was fairly easily attainable for people with busy schedules and of any skill level. Not compare it to Salvage. Or Limbus vs Dynamis. Most truly "hardcore" option had a less time consumming one that was available that still dropped worthwhile gear. The game might have been very casual unfriendly when it launched, but by the launch of WoTG it was much better balanced with plenty of great rewards for every type of player. All that without wasting any of its older content.

Seriously? This is just not true once you hit the 50's after ToAU. The ONLY reason people didn't TP burn colibris was because they were either over camped or you were in a mage-heavy party. Older camps might not have been obsolete, but they weren't far from it. Mages -were- obsolete come ToAU. "We don't need a WHM, we have a BRD." "We don't need a RDM, we have a BRD." "We don't need a BLM, we're doing TP burns, lolSC." "We don't need a SMN, we're doing TP burns, and we have a BRD."

You say I over-exaggerate the lack of content, but you're doing just that here. I knew plenty of people who hated colibris with a passion and would do anything to go to any camp but that one. I often went to Onzozo to kill Toramas, or Gustav Tunnel to exp on Goblins. Sure it was a bit slower, but it was a hell of lot more fun. Mages weren't obsolete comes TOAU either, except for BLM in leveling situations, and well SMN pretty much always was until those Astral Burns started. But I learned more soloing my BLM to 75 than I would have in party situations. My WHM never had any issues getting invites as I leveled, and RDM most definitely never had to wait for an invite. You're talking like a BRD could pull, main heal, haste and keep buffs up all on its own.

1) Feeling as though your hardwork has been invalidated when the next expansion hits. 2) Completely screwing over half of the necessary classes for endgame on the actual way TO endgame and forcing players to run 6+ year old content if they want any chance to compete in a min-max environment.

I'd see it more as :
1) Feeling as though your hard work has been invalidated when the next expansion hits, and all older content is now completely obsolete and mostly pointless to run, whether you're a veteran player who's had the chance to enjoy it before, or a new player, for whom there's nothing really to do but grind to the new cap if you want to experience any kind of challenging content.

As for 2, I'm not even sure what you mean? Screwing over half the classes? You mean the mages being hurt by TOAU? I don't see how that's relevant. It had nothing to do with the level cap being raised or not. Classes are constantly changing and being tweaked trying to strike the right balance, no matter the game. That's more poor design decisions in designing TOAU. Abyssea has done the same, classes that were irrelevant before, like MNK, are now incredibly popular. Things change. It's the same in WoW or any other MMO.

I'd put 2 more along the lines of : 2) Gives new opportunity to acquire gear, enjoy new missions and storylines all while leaving the old content intact and available should you wish to play through it again. Also gives new players content to actually enjoy besides grinding on their way to the cap.

Keep in mind XI had lots of quests and milestones to hit for a new player, tons of content to enjoy and unlock on their way to 75. Does WoW have anything like that? As far as I can remember, everything is simply handed to you in exchange for a bit of gold... Even class quests that would unlock abilities have been done away with and you can just buy the ability straight up. What is there to do on the way to 85 outside of raising your professions? Grind reputation? It's just another time sink, and the reputation rewards of older content are obsolete as well. That's probably my biggest issue with the whole thing.

As I've said, every MMO has its min-maxers. FFXI treated it as a lifestyle. In WoW, I gem and enchant my gear, and I reforge now in Cata. I also might have a haste set or a mastery set, depending on the fight and my spec. When you spend more time actually changing armor than you do playing the game, that's a big problem to me.

I actually agree with you here. I thought gear swapping was getting over the top. That's one thing I think they should, and could do differently and better. There will always be min-maxers, no matter what they go for. As you said those people exist in WoW too, FFXI just seemed to encourage it more with gear swaps being so easy to perform. I'm confident they can avoid failing into that trap again though.

[giftforce]

Omg what's with the feature length presentations. Keep it concise guys.

[Shipp]

As for 2, I'm not even sure what you mean? Screwing over half the classes? You mean the mages being hurt by TOAU? I don't see how that's relevant. It had nothing to do with the level cap being raised or not. Classes are constantly changing and being tweaked trying to strike the right balance, no matter the game. That's more poor design decisions in designing TOAU. Abyssea has done the same, classes that were irrelevant before, like MNK, are now incredibly popular. Things change. It's the same in WoW or any other MMO.

I just want to touch on this before I go to bed, I'll probably respond in full tonight. WoW doesn't eliminate the usefulness of certain classes. SMNs mainhealed quite often long before astralburns, and astralburns used to actually mean SMNs going to KRT to fight bones or going to sky for pots. RDMs had it the easiest out of the colored mages (besides BLU) to get into lolcolibri parties, but it was still shafted somewhat, unless there were no bards around. My WHM was at cap long before ToAU, and I only leveled with friends when I needed to recap come ToAU because everyone was TP burning and wanted a healer who could refresh/ballad themselves.

I agree with a few points you made though, so I should respond tonight when I get up.

[Ichi]

Everything you said in response to my comment was already explained in my comment. The gear was situational, you didn't have to get it. Your choice of ideal gear is just as valid because it serves your mold. I can get all of the valid pieces or i can get as many as i want. You are simply saying that we should be forcefully limited rather than set the limits on ourselves.

I want everyone to notice a trend here that's reflecting in every discussion of every aspect of this game. There are people that are pretending to represent a demographic with out any statistical or logical representation. Please do not take stock in the opinions of facts. "In my opinion the fact is gamers want this" it's an opinion and you don't have to state it as one it's a given because you are just one.

[Coldbrand]

It's a numbered Final Fantasy, the cap should be 99.

[Etienn]

It's a numbered Final Fantasy, the cap should be 99.

This is where everyone should stop listening, this is the end.