Level cap increase every 1-2 years.

[darkstarpoet1]

So if my rebuttals are so bad, then come up with some other reason why horizontal progression doesn't limit growth of the game.

Another statement: You can add in new weapons/armor that doesn't negate the existing.
Rebuttal: If you add in new weapons that are better, you just negated the old content anyways, and if you add in something that isn't better. Then why even get it? Your limited on inventory spaces anyways... With vertical progression, you will need these new weapons and armors, new recipes, new gathering locations/materials.

The problem with horizontal progression, is you are limiting the game to potential growth. Horizontal can only go so wide before it must go vertical. If you wait too long to go vertical, you lose all the players who don't like to repeat the same content 1000 times, and then you lose all the people who did and feel like they accomplished something by having +1 STR items over everyone else. If you do the merit system like FFXI, you are negating old content anyways, its another form of vertical progression, except the fact that now those old Rank 75 things are now super easy because of those merits.

People who had level 100 crafting after 1 year of the game, still had level 100 crafting after 7 years of the game. They were done crafting. With vertical progression, you can keep all players growing.

Here is an idea on how to keep older content relative... make existing weapons/armors upgradable by new and existing items. Capped areas, and update the existing content with new expansions (rank increases).

So list out all the pro's and con's for horizontal progression, and guaranteed that vertical progression pro's and con's will outweigh everything horizontal does (from a business perspective)

what part is hard to understand that most people do not want true horizontal. i do not want it to stay at r50 forever, but i do not think a set time frame on when to increase caps ia a good way to keep players involved. yeah i would like to see the cap raised in a year or 2 by a few levels, but it should stay there for a while and not say a year or so later it increases again. that ruins the chances at any long term goals and becomes a constant grind throughout the lifetime of the game.

grinding levels are not what will keep a person there long term. it is the content and it doesn't matter if it is at the same cap or higher cap, but things to do are what people need.

[weeble]

what part is hard to understand that most people do not want true horizontal. i do not want it to stay at r50 forever, but i do not think a set time frame on when to increase caps ia a good way to keep players involved. yeah i would like to see the cap raised in a year or 2 by a few levels, but it should stay there for a while and not say a year or so later it increases again. that ruins the chances at any long term goals and becomes a constant grind throughout the lifetime of the game.

grinding levels are not what will keep a person there long term. it is the content and it doesn't matter if it is at the same cap or higher cap, but things to do are what people need.

dynmaisis, sky, sea, enerjiah,bs,ks, limbus, nyzle, salvage, znm, nm, hnm, assault and whatever else i missed lol, this was all doable all week. i was doing all this in the same week, events pretty much everyday, some days 2-3events. weither u had to or not, or want to or not, you didn't have to do it all, but hell if no cap raise was the reason we had all this to do every week rather then just 1thing and logging out.

i don't play wow but em don't they all log in twice a week to do a dungeon and log out again? i know casual players might like this cause they can quickly hit max and then log in twice a week and still feel like they are gaming. but being able to have a choice to do all these options even all on same day or 2 is where it's at without the cap raises.

besides you really think se is gonna come out with sooooo much content that we won't be bored every month? they are already putting out content so slow that even full expansions won't keep a player not bored after a month, most people leveled half the classes and finished there crafting witch is the main part of time constraint inbetween content. granted content will eventually (what a year from now?) start comming out faster, but either way like i said lot of players are gonna still be waiting for content. and yeah i know i'm bout to get this one sentence craped on cause someone gonna say i still got lots to do, but anyway.

[Ferth]

My FFXI doesn't exist anymore Etienn. But none of your arguments have been cogent.

[Etienn]

My FFXI doesn't exist anymore Etienn. But none of your arguments have been cogent.

Well this game is casual, was being aimed at casual since the beginning, sorry if you did not get the memo this is not ffxi, it will never be ffxi. FFXi had level caps also then they rose it, and it did not take a while for them to do it, at release you could not get past a certain point, well i mean beta.

Point is this, who cares the cap will be raised, there is not enough content at rank 50. there are rank 60-9 mobs how do you suppose killing those? Jobs will not do, the mobs are too strong, a level cap unlock in inevitable so cry me a freaking river.

[Nuinn]

I personally like having the cap increased as rarely as possible, with very long periods of time between the raises. Especially with so many classes (and jobs in the future).

There's tons of ways to provide an interesting challenge at level cap without actually raising the cap for the sake of making fights harder or whatever.

[Ferth]

I just don't think one or two people get to dictate the majority. You don't know that it's the few, you just know you aren't in the camp. All we can do is let our opinions be heard and let SE decide... any claims about what the minority is or isn't is fallacious unless you run a poll.

[Shipp]

I just don't think one or two people get to dictate the majority. You don't know that it's the few, you just know you aren't in the camp. All we can do is let our opinions be heard and let SE decide... any claims about what the minority is or isn't is fallacious unless you run a poll.

Guess what, one person does dictate to the majority. He's called Yoshi-P.

I do know that it's a few. It's very easy to see that. FFXI stagnated for years and bred players who hate every other MMO out there because, "It feels pointless, no long term goals." How about getting some long-term goals IRL and keeping a game a game instead of a job?

If people who want to stagnate were truly in the majority, then WoW would have servers for every previous level cap since that vocal minority cries about it all the time. Even the people not wanting level increases as fast as others have stated that barely anyone is wanting to stay at the same level for 6 years like FFXI.

Endgame/fun should start on day 1.

It's bad enough we have 50 ranks of pointless crap to go through as a barrier to entry to the "content" (which so far isn't even there anyway), let alone more pointless crap to go through every 1-2 years, making everything before it obsolete.

Another thing, the only motivation for level cap increase is because SE doesn't want a saturated side-grade gear system, and also because grind is the easiest form of content to implement.

Well guess what, gear and grind shouldn't be what a MMO is purely about. Not all games focus on gear grinding. Yoshi himself played DaoC, which included concepts like territorial control as an end-game motivator.

Level cap rise is just lazy and unimaginative game design. Typical SE lately.

Endgame shouldn't start one day, fun should. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Flesh out the first 50 ranks and make them fun so they aren't "pointless crap," otherwise you can argue that there should be no levels at all.

Saturated side-grade systems are irritating when it comes to inventory space. I shouldn't need or feel obligated to carry around 5 different pairs of pants to perform my role to its fullest.

you mean like the amount of content that is in game at this very moment? how big a percentage do you think are waiting on content now that have already left the game? 50? 60? 80?

the point is they do not have enough content in game now and people wants cap to be raised. what reasoning is there for a cap increase when the push to 50 is already boring? they have to add enough content for all ranges and play styles and that i agree with, but they shouldn't increase the cap until that is done. if that's a year from now that's fine, but if it takes them a few years to add content to make all playstyles then it should be years before the cap raise.

I don't know about others, but I'm not asking for a level cap increase immediately. Especially not before level 50 content is added and finished.

We could argue in this circle forever because it boils down to our own personal preferences. From what I've gathered you quit playing some time after ToAU and sometime before wings of the goddess? I'm going to guess you never saw everything that ToAU introduced, let alone what was introduced in WoTG.

I quit playing ToAU 3/4 of the way through the expansion. I came back during WoTG for a month and it felt pointless. I came back and got my hat from the addon and quit 2 months later again. The only thing I haven't seen is Abyssea.

So many changes had taken place between my cancellations that the game lost its appeal to me. It didn't even feel like the same game by the time WoTG came about. ToAU destroyed much of the atmosphere for me, not to mention how it shafted just about every mage.

You were bored with Sky when you quit, I get it. You didn't like Sea. I agree, Sea was horrible. but CoP had alot more than just Sea content. ToAU had alot more than just cerberus. There was alot more to do than sky, but the gear and sky as an event were still relevant to the community, even if it wasn't personally relevant to you.

CoP did have more content than just Sea. I know this. I liked the NM fights in the areas around Tavnazia, and I thought it was a cool idea to have the dunes and Qufim connect to those zones. I know ToAU had a lot more than Cerb. I simply used him as an example in one of my posts. ToAU lost much of what the game was about though. It destroyed the need for world spawns (which isn't really a bad thing) and had many other changes that I just felt completely changed the fundamental feel of the game. I didn't like it, and ToAU is when a lot of people started leaving, and I believe also joining. Pretty sure ToAU was the prime of XI as far as subs go, but personally, 3/4 of one of my linkshells moved to WoW. I moved to WoW. At least 5 other friends I know went to WoW, and I still play with 2 of them on a regular basis.

I think people aren't getting the point of the "relevant" argument, which is why I outlined it in another post.

Sky was "irrelevant" the moment that time spent there outweighed the rewards. Does that mean that there were no good drops still? No, it doesn't. Karazhan, a level 70 raid from TBC, is irrelevant in WoW. It still drops rare enchant recipes which sell for 500g+ on the AH. Obviously, this is a wonderful money maker since you only need one recipe to learn something which you can keep making for 500g as much as you'd like, as long as you have the mats. Does that make Karazhan any less irrelevant, just because it has "situational" benefits for enchanters? No. Irrelevant and old content is still irrelevant and old.

I was in a linkshell that ran events 5 days a week. Different events every day for 5 days and 2 days for people to do whatever. My linkshell as a whole never felt like we didn't have anything that wasn't worth doing. I'm not saying every individual was excited to do every event. As I mentioned, I hated Sea, to the point where I wouldn't go unless they couldn't do it without me.

You have to realize that you were in the minority doing this though. Sure, people still did sky. I know this, I never have argued otherwise. Hardcore linkshells were still farming sky when they were doing Sea. There is a difference between relevant content and having a place on "farm status." Sky was still relevant during CoP though. In ToAU it started changing. Less and less people cared about sky, outside of the small group that might farm it for the linkshell. Linkshells weren't still sending 18+ people to sky in ToAU. Let me rephrase. Hardcore linkshells weren't still doing that.

I know of many smaller LSs from my old server that thought they were "hardcore endgame" shells, when in actuality, there were 3 main shells on the server and those smaller ones were like the little brother who is just in the way. They'd constantly wipe on the easiest of fights and still though sky was a hardcore endgame activity long after the majority of players had completely finished it after running it for years.

I was in one of the main 3 linkshells on the server. None of the huge linkshells on any server were still considering sky relevant by the time ToAU came. We still did it for money, random gear for some people, and stuff like that. We didn't kid ourselves into thinking that 6 manning most of the gods and soloing, duoing, or trioing pop items was "hardcore endgame" material at that time.

I don't know if you were in a top linkshell or one of the smaller ones for your server. Maybe you were in one of the smaller ones that was a bit behind the curve when it came to endgame. And that is perfectly fine, I'm not passing judgment. However those people doing content that many people finished 2+ years before does not make the content relevant still.

The argument that the content stagnates just doesn't work, because the community as a whole still found reason to do them. Whether it was for money, for items, hell even for DP so they could lot stuff in different events... people were doing sky up until the end. Sometimes we were alone up there, sometimes we still had to compete for certain things. Whether it was "hardcore" or not doesn't change the fact that people still did the events.

And people still do the old raids in WoW, which is why "this" argument doesn't work. The whole premise of not changing the level cap is that if you do, old content won't be done anymore. People will run old content no matter what. Even if the cap was 200 and people were soloing Kirin and Dynamis, it would still be run.

[giftforce]

Endgame shouldn't start one day, fun should. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Flesh out the first 50 ranks and make them fun so they aren't "pointless crap," otherwise you can argue that there should be no levels at all.

Saturated side-grade systems are irritating when it comes to inventory space. I shouldn't need or feel obligated to carry around 5 different pairs of pants to perform my role to its fullest.

In my opinion endgame should start at R1. You should be contributing to the world in some way the moment you set foot in the gameworld. Anything other than that is pointless crap.

I don't believe in passively digesting content and as a matter of fact I think there should be no levels at all. But since this is a FF game, I will learn to live with some degree of RPG elements.

50 ranks is bad enough though. More than that is just being excessive.

The barrier to entry to new content should be skill, not how many months you've grinded (ground?). And if SE cannot implement a system that differentiates skill-levels enough then they have failed in combat design. Again.

And oh no - you have to carry around 5 weapons. Poor you. Sorry the world isn't the perfect little fairy tale you always wanted it to be. I'd rather carry around multiple weapons than have to grind ten times as much as is humanly tolerable, only to have everything be obsolete anyway.

That isn't a good system. That is a futile system.

[Shipp]

In my opinion endgame should start at R1. You should be contributing to the world in some way the moment you set foot in the gameworld. Anything other than that is pointless crap.

I don't believe in passively digesting content and as a matter of fact I think there should be no levels at all. But since this is a FF game, I will learn to live with some degree of RPG elements.

50 ranks is bad enough though. More than that is just being excessive.

The barrier to entry to new content should be skill, not how many months you've grinded (ground?). And if SE cannot implement a system that differentiates skill-levels enough then they have failed in combat design. Again.

And oh no - you have to carry around 5 weapons. Poor you. Sorry the world isn't the perfect little fairy tale you always wanted it to be. I'd rather carry around multiple weapons than have to grind ten times as much as is humanly tolerable, only to have everything be obsolete anyway.

That isn't a good system. That is a futile system.

Yes, poor me, having to carry around 5 pairs of pants, 4 pairs of chest pieces, 3 gloves, 3 shoes, 3 hats, 8 staves, 2 necklaces, 2 rings, 3-4 earrings, a cape, a stone, and whatever else I'm forgetting, just for one job to be able to keep up with the curve in an endgame setting. How foolish of me not to see how this is a good system compared to one, or MAYBE 2 items for my slots. Forgive the error of my ways, wise one who thinks there shouldn't be levels in an MMO.

[giftforce]

Yes, poor me, having to carry around 5 pairs of pants, 4 pairs of chest pieces, 3 gloves, 3 shoes, 3 hats, 8 staves, 2 necklaces, 2 rings, 3-4 earrings, a cape, a stone, and whatever else I'm forgetting, just for one job to be able to keep up with the curve in an endgame setting. How foolish of me not to see how this is a good system compared to one, or MAYBE 2 items for my slots. Forgive the error of my ways, wise one who thinks there shouldn't be levels in an MMO.

Just because you are set in your ways and think leveling and gear-grind is the only possible path of progression doesn't mean I'm unwise.