Level cap increase every 1-2 years.

[giftforce]

Endgame shouldn't start one day, fun should. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Flesh out the first 50 ranks and make them fun so they aren't "pointless crap," otherwise you can argue that there should be no levels at all.

Saturated side-grade systems are irritating when it comes to inventory space. I shouldn't need or feel obligated to carry around 5 different pairs of pants to perform my role to its fullest.

In my opinion endgame should start at R1. You should be contributing to the world in some way the moment you set foot in the gameworld. Anything other than that is pointless crap.

I don't believe in passively digesting content and as a matter of fact I think there should be no levels at all. But since this is a FF game, I will learn to live with some degree of RPG elements.

50 ranks is bad enough though. More than that is just being excessive.

The barrier to entry to new content should be skill, not how many months you've grinded (ground?). And if SE cannot implement a system that differentiates skill-levels enough then they have failed in combat design. Again.

And oh no - you have to carry around 5 weapons. Poor you. Sorry the world isn't the perfect little fairy tale you always wanted it to be. I'd rather carry around multiple weapons than have to grind ten times as much as is humanly tolerable, only to have everything be obsolete anyway.

That isn't a good system. That is a futile system.

[Shipp]

In my opinion endgame should start at R1. You should be contributing to the world in some way the moment you set foot in the gameworld. Anything other than that is pointless crap.

I don't believe in passively digesting content and as a matter of fact I think there should be no levels at all. But since this is a FF game, I will learn to live with some degree of RPG elements.

50 ranks is bad enough though. More than that is just being excessive.

The barrier to entry to new content should be skill, not how many months you've grinded (ground?). And if SE cannot implement a system that differentiates skill-levels enough then they have failed in combat design. Again.

And oh no - you have to carry around 5 weapons. Poor you. Sorry the world isn't the perfect little fairy tale you always wanted it to be. I'd rather carry around multiple weapons than have to grind ten times as much as is humanly tolerable, only to have everything be obsolete anyway.

That isn't a good system. That is a futile system.

Yes, poor me, having to carry around 5 pairs of pants, 4 pairs of chest pieces, 3 gloves, 3 shoes, 3 hats, 8 staves, 2 necklaces, 2 rings, 3-4 earrings, a cape, a stone, and whatever else I'm forgetting, just for one job to be able to keep up with the curve in an endgame setting. How foolish of me not to see how this is a good system compared to one, or MAYBE 2 items for my slots. Forgive the error of my ways, wise one who thinks there shouldn't be levels in an MMO.

[giftforce]

Yes, poor me, having to carry around 5 pairs of pants, 4 pairs of chest pieces, 3 gloves, 3 shoes, 3 hats, 8 staves, 2 necklaces, 2 rings, 3-4 earrings, a cape, a stone, and whatever else I'm forgetting, just for one job to be able to keep up with the curve in an endgame setting. How foolish of me not to see how this is a good system compared to one, or MAYBE 2 items for my slots. Forgive the error of my ways, wise one who thinks there shouldn't be levels in an MMO.

Just because you are set in your ways and think leveling and gear-grind is the only possible path of progression doesn't mean I'm unwise.

[Shipp]

Just because you are set in your ways and think leveling and gear-grind is the only possible path of progression doesn't mean I'm unwise.

You're absolutely correct.

This is why you're unwise:

And oh no - you have to carry around 5 weapons. Poor you. Sorry the world isn't the perfect little fairy tale you always wanted it to be.

I can see you're just trolling now though, since you were obviously never in endgame in XI as you don't realize how having literally half of your inventory filled with situational gear at all times is a terrible system.

[Bruknar]

There are pros and cons to both sides, but I personally prefer horizontal growth by a longshot. I could never stand WoW's constant updates, especially when they're so extreme. Going from 80 to 85 essentially made your character 5x stronger. That's completely ridiculous and it does invalidate everything else the developpers have worked on before. If it wasn't for the achievement system, most people wouldn't bother running any of these old instances ever again. The people who run them for leveling purposes are usually just leeching off a higher character and not experiencing them as they were meant to be.

It's not like everything is perfect for WoW either. I remember reading a few months ago that their numbers we're down significantly since the launch of Cataclysm, because there was not enough content, and whatever there was was way too easy to accomplish. I quit about two weeks after it came out, and my Druid was raid ready, had all his professions to 525 including Archeology, had all the quests of every new zones completed and was essentially out of new content outside of the raids, which I feel no reason to do as everything they drop will be obsolete a few months later when they release a new update.

I much prefer a system that doesn't obsolete everything else. Sky still had plenty of relevant gear by the time Abyssea came out. It might not have been the "cream of the crop" in many cases, but that didn't make it completely worthless to anyone who didn't have hundreds of hours to pour into HNM camping or Salvage. Byakko's Haidate, Kirin's Osode, Wyrm Leggings, Wyrm Gloves, Shura Togi, etc all still had very regular uses for many classes. It might not have been "hardcore" to do for people deep into endgame like I was, but I still enjoyed going back and helping more casual friends obtain their gear and showing them the ropes of endgame.

Plus every expansion brought with it new zones and content designed not only for hardcore endgame players, but for people still in the process of leveling and for casual players as well. I never felt like the game was stagnating, it always felt like it was ever expanding, and even leveling new jobs brought new experiences, as old camps got replaced by new ones. But even those older "obsolete" camps were still viable options for those who wished to avoid camping on top of 4 other parties and who didn't mind a challenge that no colibri could ever offer.

I do think they made mistakes. I never liked the melee-burning trend that TOAU brought. I wish they would have found ways to expand crafting as well, outside of releasing new ingredients and recipes once in a while. Synergy always felt too complicated and mostly pointless. And I hate Abyssea and the Trial of the Magians path the developpers chose to go with, but it was a blessing for more casual players I guess, even if it ruined the game for me.

I guess my point is that FFXI proved there was no real need for constant level cap raises, that it was possible to keep putting out new content and storylines and challenging bosses without invalidating everything that came before it. Sadly I think XIV is still a long, long way from ever achieving greatness no matter if it goes for horizontal or vertical progression.

[Shipp]

There are pros and cons to both sides, but I personally prefer horizontal growth by a longshot. I could never stand WoW's constant updates, especially when they're so extreme. Going from 80 to 85 essentially made your character 5x stronger. That's completely ridiculous and it does invalidate everything else the developpers have worked on before. If it wasn't for the achievement system, most people wouldn't bother running any of these old instances ever again. The people who run them for leveling purposes are usually just leeching off a higher character and not experiencing them as they were meant to be.

It's not like everything is perfect for WoW either. I remember reading a few months ago that their numbers we're down significantly since the launch of Cataclysm, because there was not enough content, and whatever there was was way too easy to accomplish. I quit about two weeks after it came out, and my Druid was raid ready, had all his professions to 525 including Archeology, had all the quests of every new zones completed and was essentially out of new content outside of the raids, which I feel no reason to do as everything they drop will be obsolete a few months later when they release a new update.

Most people complaining about WoW's raid content weren't actually fully clearing it. Just like it always happens. Though content was delayed by quite a bit. Firelands is picking it back up though. I took over 3 months off from WoW since Cata, so I'm far from a white-knight.

Two weeks after launch, there was no possible way your druid had done every new quest, plus gotten all of your reps to exalted, plus got your guild to level 25, plus bought all of the guild rewards, plus got exalted with Tol Barad through all of the dailies, and then cleared all of the available raids. People over-exaggerate the lack of content from Cata, and it's largely moot at this point. Patches are coming slower, but for people on an XIV message board, it's quite ironic to hear complaints over WoW's slow patches.

600,000 people have left WoW for many reasons. By the way, 80-85 was not supposed to feel like a 5 level increase, it was supposed to feel like a 10 level increase. The devs stated that many times before Cata was launched. Many of the reasons people left were bugs not being fixed during the Beta (deja vu), we STILL have a BG queue bug that the devs don't even mention anymore as if it's just going to fix itself, healing changes made pugs a pain in the ass to heal, because people, 7 months later, still don't understand the simple concept of, "Perhaps I should move out of the fire." Seriously, I pulled a tank with Leap of Faith OUT of the lightning forcefield in Vortex Pinnacle and he ran back in it to tank the mobs there... where magic does 0. This is after we told him to move them out of it long before I lifegripped him.

A lot of PvP players on those servers have left too since now they're not even somewhat safe from 1-60 since you can fly wherever you want. One of the lead devs, and several of the code monkeys have been transferred to Titan, their new MMO. The two remaining lead devs apparently have no clue as to what is going on. Ghostcrawler plays a mage, and coming from a mage, we are ridiculously OP in everything except arena. A frost mage not only can lock down players (as have we always), but we can do insane damage now as well.

The 600,000 didn't leave because of a level cap increase.

I much prefer a system that doesn't obsolete everything else. Sky still had plenty of relevant gear by the time Abyssea came out. It might not have been the "cream of the crop" in many cases, but that didn't make it completely worthless to anyone who didn't have hundreds of hours to pour into HNM camping or Salvage. Byakko's Haidate, Kirin's Osode, Wyrm Leggings, Wyrm Gloves, Shura Togi, etc all still had very regular uses for many classes. It might not have been "hardcore" to do for people deep into endgame like I was, but I still enjoyed going back and helping more casual friends obtain their gear and showing them the ropes of endgame.

This list of sky gear keeps becoming longer and longer. I'm wondering here, how many items were out post-sky that were NEARLY just as good as those items, but those might have had +1 - +3 better stats? Min-maxers are not the majority of the MMO community, that's easy enough to see in WoW, who holds the majority of said community.

Plus every expansion brought with it new zones and content designed not only for hardcore endgame players, but for people still in the process of leveling and for casual players as well. I never felt like the game was stagnating, it always felt like it was ever expanding, and even leveling new jobs brought new experiences, as old camps got replaced by new ones. But even those older "obsolete" camps were still viable options for those who wished to avoid camping on top of 4 other parties and who didn't mind a challenge that no colibri could ever offer.

Seriously? This is just not true once you hit the 50's after ToAU. The ONLY reason people didn't TP burn colibris was because they were either over camped or you were in a mage-heavy party. Older camps might not have been obsolete, but they weren't far from it. Mages -were- obsolete come ToAU. "We don't need a WHM, we have a BRD." "We don't need a RDM, we have a BRD." "We don't need a BLM, we're doing TP burns, lolSC." "We don't need a SMN, we're doing TP burns, and we have a BRD."

I do think they made mistakes. I never liked the melee-burning trend that TOAU brought. I wish they would have found ways to expand crafting as well, outside of releasing new ingredients and recipes once in a while. Synergy always felt too complicated and mostly pointless. And I hate Abyssea and the Trial of the Magians path the developpers chose to go with, but it was a blessing for more casual players I guess, even if it ruined the game for me.

I'd agree that Abyssea was probably the ruining factor of the game, though ToAU carved the way to that path with TP burns. When I went back the last time and participated in a Kor Tunnel SMN-burn, I logged out after and canceled. It was fun, however it too helped ruin the game.

I guess my point is that FFXI proved there was no real need for constant level cap raises, that it was possible to keep putting out new content and storylines and challenging bosses without invalidating everything that came before it. Sadly I think XIV is still a long, long way from ever achieving greatness no matter if it goes for horizontal or vertical progression.

The thing I'm not quite understanding with people in favor of horizontal progression is this. All of you, that I have seen, have admitted that things went horribly wrong prior to Abyssea, around the time of ToAU. Do you ever stop to think that while older content might be saved from death, horizontal progression is the reason why after CoP, XI took a turn for the worst? Not raising a cap every expac is fine. Every other expac would be fine with me. That gives you two expansions to run content. However WoW, nor any other level progression MMO has faced these woes that FFXI did. Seems the thing separating them is a difference in horizontal vs vertical. Perhaps horizontal progression might make some players feel as though their time hasn't been wasted on gear obtained, but it leads to its own set of problems exclusive to -not- raising the cap. This would come down to what is the lesser of two evils. 1) Feeling as though your hardwork has been invalidated when the next expansion hits. 2) Completely screwing over half of the necessary classes for endgame on the actual way TO endgame and forcing players to run 6+ year old content if they want any chance to compete in a min-max environment.

As I've said, every MMO has its min-maxers. FFXI treated it as a lifestyle. In WoW, I gem and enchant my gear, and I reforge now in Cata. I also might have a haste set or a mastery set, depending on the fight and my spec. When you spend more time actually changing armor than you do playing the game, that's a big problem to me. That is a direct result of stacking so much situational gear into the game instead of out-right upgrades. And equipment swapping was not difficult, before someone says that takes more skill. All it takes is one look at forums to figure out what piece of gear is the most effective for which ability, you macro it, and then you forget it.

Just food for thought.

[Bruknar]

Two weeks after launch, there was no possible way your druid had done every new quest, plus gotten all of your reps to exalted, plus got your guild to level 25, plus bought all of the guild rewards, plus got exalted with Tol Barad through all of the dailies, and then cleared all of the available raids. People over-exaggerate the lack of content from Cata, and it's largely moot at this point. Patches are coming slower, but for people on an XIV message board, it's quite ironic to hear complaints over WoW's slow patches.

I was going off the top of my head, but after looking at my armory, I got the game on the 8th of December, on the 16th I got Loremaster of Cataclysm and on the 31st I got Exalted with Tol Barad, which was the last Cataclysm related achievement I got before quitting a few days later. At that point I was already playing sporadically, which I kept doing mostly fishing in Dalaran till the 8th of January. So I achieved what I wanted out of Cataclysm in 3 weeks essentially. I'm exalted with Therazane, and I'm at least Revered with every other Cata reputation except Earthen Ring. I am not in a guild, nor do I care for guild levels or guild rewards.

I'm not complaining about the slow patches, if anything WoW is actually fairly fast at putting out content compared to XI or XIV. I complain at launching new expansions that completely obsolete older content with barely enough content to keep players busy for a month. And what's left once you've gone through most of that content? Grinding! Grinding for rep, grinding for gear, grinding for gold. The difference in my mind is that all that rep you're grinding for? Yeah in a year it'll have been a complete waste of time outside of that little star in your achievement book.

The 600,000 didn't leave because of a level cap increase.

Maybe not all of them. But more have for that reason than because of getting PKed on PvP servers I'm pretty sure. Not much can be done about stupid players who refuse to learn the mechanics, but all games have those. It's true Druid healing was hurt pretty bad when the expansion launched, but I simply switched to a Feral build and enjoyed the content that way. Heroics were still manageable, and actually enjoyable because they were somewhat challenging.

This list of sky gear keeps becoming longer and longer. I'm wondering here, how many items were out post-sky that were NEARLY just as good as those items, but those might have had +1 - +3 better stats? Min-maxers are not the majority of the MMO community, that's easy enough to see in WoW, who holds the majority of said community.

There were a lot of items that were just as good, or maybe slightly better depending on the situation. Were they easier to obtain though? Not really. Sky was accessible, fairly easy, not all that time consumming, and it dropped gear that could build a solid basis for pretty much any job in the game. Min-maxers had other options they could choose to pursue if they wished, sure. But for the average guy without 5 nights a week to put on a game, Sky was a wonderful end game activity that let them acquire gear that could greatly improve any "stock" AH character. Nyzul Isle in my mind was a continuiation of that mindset. Give solid gear that may not be the "best", but was fairly easily attainable for people with busy schedules and of any skill level. Not compare it to Salvage. Or Limbus vs Dynamis. Most truly "hardcore" option had a less time consumming one that was available that still dropped worthwhile gear. The game might have been very casual unfriendly when it launched, but by the launch of WoTG it was much better balanced with plenty of great rewards for every type of player. All that without wasting any of its older content.

Seriously? This is just not true once you hit the 50's after ToAU. The ONLY reason people didn't TP burn colibris was because they were either over camped or you were in a mage-heavy party. Older camps might not have been obsolete, but they weren't far from it. Mages -were- obsolete come ToAU. "We don't need a WHM, we have a BRD." "We don't need a RDM, we have a BRD." "We don't need a BLM, we're doing TP burns, lolSC." "We don't need a SMN, we're doing TP burns, and we have a BRD."

You say I over-exaggerate the lack of content, but you're doing just that here. I knew plenty of people who hated colibris with a passion and would do anything to go to any camp but that one. I often went to Onzozo to kill Toramas, or Gustav Tunnel to exp on Goblins. Sure it was a bit slower, but it was a hell of lot more fun. Mages weren't obsolete comes TOAU either, except for BLM in leveling situations, and well SMN pretty much always was until those Astral Burns started. But I learned more soloing my BLM to 75 than I would have in party situations. My WHM never had any issues getting invites as I leveled, and RDM most definitely never had to wait for an invite. You're talking like a BRD could pull, main heal, haste and keep buffs up all on its own.

1) Feeling as though your hardwork has been invalidated when the next expansion hits. 2) Completely screwing over half of the necessary classes for endgame on the actual way TO endgame and forcing players to run 6+ year old content if they want any chance to compete in a min-max environment.

I'd see it more as :
1) Feeling as though your hard work has been invalidated when the next expansion hits, and all older content is now completely obsolete and mostly pointless to run, whether you're a veteran player who's had the chance to enjoy it before, or a new player, for whom there's nothing really to do but grind to the new cap if you want to experience any kind of challenging content.

As for 2, I'm not even sure what you mean? Screwing over half the classes? You mean the mages being hurt by TOAU? I don't see how that's relevant. It had nothing to do with the level cap being raised or not. Classes are constantly changing and being tweaked trying to strike the right balance, no matter the game. That's more poor design decisions in designing TOAU. Abyssea has done the same, classes that were irrelevant before, like MNK, are now incredibly popular. Things change. It's the same in WoW or any other MMO.

I'd put 2 more along the lines of : 2) Gives new opportunity to acquire gear, enjoy new missions and storylines all while leaving the old content intact and available should you wish to play through it again. Also gives new players content to actually enjoy besides grinding on their way to the cap.

Keep in mind XI had lots of quests and milestones to hit for a new player, tons of content to enjoy and unlock on their way to 75. Does WoW have anything like that? As far as I can remember, everything is simply handed to you in exchange for a bit of gold... Even class quests that would unlock abilities have been done away with and you can just buy the ability straight up. What is there to do on the way to 85 outside of raising your professions? Grind reputation? It's just another time sink, and the reputation rewards of older content are obsolete as well. That's probably my biggest issue with the whole thing.

As I've said, every MMO has its min-maxers. FFXI treated it as a lifestyle. In WoW, I gem and enchant my gear, and I reforge now in Cata. I also might have a haste set or a mastery set, depending on the fight and my spec. When you spend more time actually changing armor than you do playing the game, that's a big problem to me.

I actually agree with you here. I thought gear swapping was getting over the top. That's one thing I think they should, and could do differently and better. There will always be min-maxers, no matter what they go for. As you said those people exist in WoW too, FFXI just seemed to encourage it more with gear swaps being so easy to perform. I'm confident they can avoid failing into that trap again though.