Level cap increase every 1-2 years.

[Ferth]

Shipp... You can't dissociate your negative view of FFXI. Everything you say in regards to it is based on an opinion but you are treating it as if it is fact.

And you're being pretty damn offensive about it. "If people who want to stagnate." You say it over and over again refusing to accept that it's only stagnant from your perspective.

Those same raids you are defending in WoW could easily be seen as stagnant to someone else. I could be labeling you as someone who likes to stagnate because you yourself have expressed an interest in running older content for the same reasons I've stated that people still run sky. It's a label that works either way because it is purely dependent on personal perspective.

Your arguments are not arguments based on a general consensus, they are arguments based on something you dislike vs something you do.

I'm not arguing that a static level cap is the best ever! I'm just pointing out that despite your personal opinion there were people who found value in the system. Just like there are people who find value in the system implemented by WoW.

Everything else is just proselytizing.

People want to come in here and say "I hated FFXI, erego it was bad and everyone who disagrees with me is in the minority." And that is not a position you can viably argue from.

If you didn't like having a static end game level, say that and move on. You aren't going to convince the people who did enjoy it that they are somehow wrong, and in the attempt we all come off as ignorant, and offensive.

[Shipp]

Shipp... You can't dissociate your negative view of FFXI. Everything you say in regards to it is based on an opinion but you are treating it as if it is fact.

And you're being pretty damn offensive about it. "If people who want to stagnate." You say it over and over again refusing to accept that it's only stagnant from your perspective.

I'm offensive, the poster right up there ^ told everyone who wants a level change to basically STFU and GTFO?

What is the definition of stagnate? Compare that to 75s in FFXI for 6 years. It IS stagnating. Where new content is being released or not, your character progression is staying stagnant.

Those same raids you are defending in WoW could easily be seen as stagnant to someone else. I could be labeling you as someone who likes to stagnate because you yourself have expressed an interest in running older content for the same reasons I've stated that people still run sky. It's a label that works either way because it is purely dependent on personal perspective.

There's a difference. I also run fresh content and realize that old content is old instead of trying to act as if it's somehow still part of the majority's "endgame hardcore" list.

Your arguments are not arguments based on a general consensus, they are arguments based on something you dislike vs something you do.

I personally don't care either way. I do like level cap increases, and I think they should do it. Guess what, my argument may be based on personal preference (it's really not, I've just stated how level cap increases aren't what killed off sky), but I'm sure Yoshi-P does have some data. He decided level raises were a good thing.

I'm not arguing that a static level cap is the best ever! I'm just pointing out that despite your personal opinion there were people who found value in the system. Just like there are people who find value in the system implemented by WoW.

Yes, I'm not denying there were people who found value in that system. I found value in never having to worry about a cap increase after I completely pimped out my Taru. That doesn't mean it was actually good for the game.

Everything else is just proselytizing.

Which is the same thing you're doing in the thread too. The point of the thread is to have a discussion and debate about which is better.

People want to come in here and say "I hated FFXI, erego it was bad and everyone who disagrees with me is in the minority." And that is not a position you can viably argue from.

I've never taken that stance. I didn't hate FFXI, I loved FFXI. However those who want a one-time level cap -are- in the minority, otherwise we'd be seeing it as the norm in MMOs.

If you didn't like having a static end game level, say that and move on. You aren't going to convince the people who did enjoy it that they are somehow wrong, and in the attempt we all come off as ignorant, and offensive.

Same can be said for you. If you don't like having an increasing level cap, say that and move on. Do you see how ridiculous your argument for this is? That's not being offensive, that's calling a spade a spade.

Edit:

Auctiongirl had an excellent post which explained how vertical is better than horizontal.

So if my rebuttals are so bad, then come up with some other reason why horizontal progression doesn't limit growth of the game.

Another statement: You can add in new weapons/armor that doesn't negate the existing.
Rebuttal: If you add in new weapons that are better, you just negated the old content anyways, and if you add in something that isn't better. Then why even get it? Your limited on inventory spaces anyways... With vertical progression, you will need these new weapons and armors, new recipes, new gathering locations/materials.

The problem with horizontal progression, is you are limiting the game to potential growth. Horizontal can only go so wide before it must go vertical. If you wait too long to go vertical, you lose all the players who don't like to repeat the same content 1000 times, and then you lose all the people who did and feel like they accomplished something by having +1 STR items over everyone else. If you do the merit system like FFXI, you are negating old content anyways, its another form of vertical progression, except the fact that now those old Rank 75 things are now super easy because of those merits.

People who had level 100 crafting after 1 year of the game, still had level 100 crafting after 7 years of the game. They were done crafting. With vertical progression, you can keep all players growing.

Here is an idea on how to keep older content relative... make existing weapons/armors upgradable by new and existing items. Capped areas, and update the existing content with new expansions (rank increases).

So list out all the pro's and con's for horizontal progression, and guaranteed that vertical progression pro's and con's will outweigh everything horizontal does (from a business perspective)

Has anyone actually tried to prove this false? No. Instead, it's degraded into mudslinging towards anyone who wants vertical, because "Horizontal worked in XI so it much be best," when it actually didn't work in XI for the reasons she stated.