Level cap increase every 1-2 years.

[Ferth]

I just don't think one or two people get to dictate the majority. You don't know that it's the few, you just know you aren't in the camp. All we can do is let our opinions be heard and let SE decide... any claims about what the minority is or isn't is fallacious unless you run a poll.

[giftforce]

Endgame/fun should start on day 1.

It's bad enough we have 50 ranks of pointless crap to go through as a barrier to entry to the "content" (which so far isn't even there anyway), let alone more pointless crap to go through every 1-2 years, making everything before it obsolete.

Another thing, the only motivation for level cap increase is because SE doesn't want a saturated side-grade gear system, and also because grind is the easiest form of content to implement.

Well guess what, gear and grind shouldn't be what a MMO is purely about. Not all games focus on gear grinding. Yoshi himself played DaoC, which included concepts like territorial control as an end-game motivator.

Level cap rise is just lazy and unimaginative game design. Typical SE lately.

[darkstarpoet1]

i encourage raising lv caps 100% as much as making sure enough current lv end game content is there for those that prefer dungeons/large guild events/raidng/earning ranks/opening new zones etc..whatever it may be.

you mean like the amount of content that is in game at this very moment? how big a percentage do you think are waiting on content now that have already left the game? 50? 60? 80?

the point is they do not have enough content in game now and people wants cap to be raised. what reasoning is there for a cap increase when the push to 50 is already boring? they have to add enough content for all ranges and play styles and that i agree with, but they shouldn't increase the cap until that is done. if that's a year from now that's fine, but if it takes them a few years to add content to make all playstyles then it should be years before the cap raise.

[Ferth]

So you'd rather have a small player-base who is lazy and wants to stagnate instead of a larger one that appreciates character progression? Most of us commenting on this DID play XI, and I played hardcore since I was in highschool when it came out.

This is really about as dumb as an argument against fatigue. You know, the arguments where people claimed it was helping casuals, when in actuality, it was creating a bigger gap between the hardcores who capped out every reset and the casuals who never capped out at reset.

I can respect people who say they want the cap to stay at 75 because they don't want to level a character anymore. I can respect that OPINION. I cannot respect someone acting as if Sky was still done hardcore up until Abyssea. It simply was not a hardcore endgame activity by that time. Was it done still? Yes. Nobody is debating that. It wasn't done as it was in its prime.

That is what most of us are having a problem with. People are using the level cap as an excuse as to why XI is dying when that's not it at all. It may have put the nail in the coffin, but the game was already on life support. These endgame activities became irrelevant in terms of time spent vs rewards long long ago. I, personally, am tired of seeing the level cap increase used as a scapegoat.

The level cap increase wasn't what ruined the game for me, I continued playing until just after the level 85 cap. I just don't agree with your aspersion that everyone in favor of a static increase is in favor of stagnant gameplay or that having a static level cap means the gameplay will stagnate.

We could argue in this circle forever because it boils down to our own personal preferences. From what I've gathered you quit playing some time after ToAU and sometime before wings of the goddess? I'm going to guess you never saw everything that ToAU introduced, let alone what was introduced in WoTG.

You were bored with Sky when you quit, I get it. You didn't like Sea. I agree, Sea was horrible. but CoP had alot more than just Sea content. ToAU had alot more than just cerberus. There was alot more to do than sky, but the gear and sky as an event were still relevant to the community, even if it wasn't personally relevant to you.

I was in a linkshell that ran events 5 days a week. Different events every day for 5 days and 2 days for people to do whatever. My linkshell as a whole never felt like we didn't have anything that wasn't worth doing. I'm not saying every individual was excited to do every event. As I mentioned, I hated Sea, to the point where I wouldn't go unless they couldn't do it without me.

The argument that the content stagnates just doesn't work, because the community as a whole still found reason to do them. Whether it was for money, for items, hell even for DP so they could lot stuff in different events... people were doing sky up until the end. Sometimes we were alone up there, sometimes we still had to compete for certain things. Whether it was "hardcore" or not doesn't change the fact that people still did the events.

[Shipp]

I just don't think one or two people get to dictate the majority. You don't know that it's the few, you just know you aren't in the camp. All we can do is let our opinions be heard and let SE decide... any claims about what the minority is or isn't is fallacious unless you run a poll.

Guess what, one person does dictate to the majority. He's called Yoshi-P.

I do know that it's a few. It's very easy to see that. FFXI stagnated for years and bred players who hate every other MMO out there because, "It feels pointless, no long term goals." How about getting some long-term goals IRL and keeping a game a game instead of a job?

If people who want to stagnate were truly in the majority, then WoW would have servers for every previous level cap since that vocal minority cries about it all the time. Even the people not wanting level increases as fast as others have stated that barely anyone is wanting to stay at the same level for 6 years like FFXI.

Endgame/fun should start on day 1.

It's bad enough we have 50 ranks of pointless crap to go through as a barrier to entry to the "content" (which so far isn't even there anyway), let alone more pointless crap to go through every 1-2 years, making everything before it obsolete.

Another thing, the only motivation for level cap increase is because SE doesn't want a saturated side-grade gear system, and also because grind is the easiest form of content to implement.

Well guess what, gear and grind shouldn't be what a MMO is purely about. Not all games focus on gear grinding. Yoshi himself played DaoC, which included concepts like territorial control as an end-game motivator.

Level cap rise is just lazy and unimaginative game design. Typical SE lately.

Endgame shouldn't start one day, fun should. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Flesh out the first 50 ranks and make them fun so they aren't "pointless crap," otherwise you can argue that there should be no levels at all.

Saturated side-grade systems are irritating when it comes to inventory space. I shouldn't need or feel obligated to carry around 5 different pairs of pants to perform my role to its fullest.

you mean like the amount of content that is in game at this very moment? how big a percentage do you think are waiting on content now that have already left the game? 50? 60? 80?

the point is they do not have enough content in game now and people wants cap to be raised. what reasoning is there for a cap increase when the push to 50 is already boring? they have to add enough content for all ranges and play styles and that i agree with, but they shouldn't increase the cap until that is done. if that's a year from now that's fine, but if it takes them a few years to add content to make all playstyles then it should be years before the cap raise.

I don't know about others, but I'm not asking for a level cap increase immediately. Especially not before level 50 content is added and finished.

We could argue in this circle forever because it boils down to our own personal preferences. From what I've gathered you quit playing some time after ToAU and sometime before wings of the goddess? I'm going to guess you never saw everything that ToAU introduced, let alone what was introduced in WoTG.

I quit playing ToAU 3/4 of the way through the expansion. I came back during WoTG for a month and it felt pointless. I came back and got my hat from the addon and quit 2 months later again. The only thing I haven't seen is Abyssea.

So many changes had taken place between my cancellations that the game lost its appeal to me. It didn't even feel like the same game by the time WoTG came about. ToAU destroyed much of the atmosphere for me, not to mention how it shafted just about every mage.

You were bored with Sky when you quit, I get it. You didn't like Sea. I agree, Sea was horrible. but CoP had alot more than just Sea content. ToAU had alot more than just cerberus. There was alot more to do than sky, but the gear and sky as an event were still relevant to the community, even if it wasn't personally relevant to you.

CoP did have more content than just Sea. I know this. I liked the NM fights in the areas around Tavnazia, and I thought it was a cool idea to have the dunes and Qufim connect to those zones. I know ToAU had a lot more than Cerb. I simply used him as an example in one of my posts. ToAU lost much of what the game was about though. It destroyed the need for world spawns (which isn't really a bad thing) and had many other changes that I just felt completely changed the fundamental feel of the game. I didn't like it, and ToAU is when a lot of people started leaving, and I believe also joining. Pretty sure ToAU was the prime of XI as far as subs go, but personally, 3/4 of one of my linkshells moved to WoW. I moved to WoW. At least 5 other friends I know went to WoW, and I still play with 2 of them on a regular basis.

I think people aren't getting the point of the "relevant" argument, which is why I outlined it in another post.

Sky was "irrelevant" the moment that time spent there outweighed the rewards. Does that mean that there were no good drops still? No, it doesn't. Karazhan, a level 70 raid from TBC, is irrelevant in WoW. It still drops rare enchant recipes which sell for 500g+ on the AH. Obviously, this is a wonderful money maker since you only need one recipe to learn something which you can keep making for 500g as much as you'd like, as long as you have the mats. Does that make Karazhan any less irrelevant, just because it has "situational" benefits for enchanters? No. Irrelevant and old content is still irrelevant and old.

I was in a linkshell that ran events 5 days a week. Different events every day for 5 days and 2 days for people to do whatever. My linkshell as a whole never felt like we didn't have anything that wasn't worth doing. I'm not saying every individual was excited to do every event. As I mentioned, I hated Sea, to the point where I wouldn't go unless they couldn't do it without me.

You have to realize that you were in the minority doing this though. Sure, people still did sky. I know this, I never have argued otherwise. Hardcore linkshells were still farming sky when they were doing Sea. There is a difference between relevant content and having a place on "farm status." Sky was still relevant during CoP though. In ToAU it started changing. Less and less people cared about sky, outside of the small group that might farm it for the linkshell. Linkshells weren't still sending 18+ people to sky in ToAU. Let me rephrase. Hardcore linkshells weren't still doing that.

I know of many smaller LSs from my old server that thought they were "hardcore endgame" shells, when in actuality, there were 3 main shells on the server and those smaller ones were like the little brother who is just in the way. They'd constantly wipe on the easiest of fights and still though sky was a hardcore endgame activity long after the majority of players had completely finished it after running it for years.

I was in one of the main 3 linkshells on the server. None of the huge linkshells on any server were still considering sky relevant by the time ToAU came. We still did it for money, random gear for some people, and stuff like that. We didn't kid ourselves into thinking that 6 manning most of the gods and soloing, duoing, or trioing pop items was "hardcore endgame" material at that time.

I don't know if you were in a top linkshell or one of the smaller ones for your server. Maybe you were in one of the smaller ones that was a bit behind the curve when it came to endgame. And that is perfectly fine, I'm not passing judgment. However those people doing content that many people finished 2+ years before does not make the content relevant still.

The argument that the content stagnates just doesn't work, because the community as a whole still found reason to do them. Whether it was for money, for items, hell even for DP so they could lot stuff in different events... people were doing sky up until the end. Sometimes we were alone up there, sometimes we still had to compete for certain things. Whether it was "hardcore" or not doesn't change the fact that people still did the events.

And people still do the old raids in WoW, which is why "this" argument doesn't work. The whole premise of not changing the level cap is that if you do, old content won't be done anymore. People will run old content no matter what. Even if the cap was 200 and people were soloing Kirin and Dynamis, it would still be run.

[weeble]

doing content and running threw it is 2 diff things, solo'ing something that took full shells to do isn't still doing content. that is like killing the rank 5nm for a rank 7rare,ex gear. yeah it's being done, but it ain't the same. caps on content or bust, and keeping the content always changing every year or two again ..still horrible idea. i don't think u can win me on this one, it's just 2 diff opinions and game styles. but then again i'd want caps on every single fight, nm's, quests, missions, hell regular grind mobs too..u attack u drop to the right rank to make it challenging.

[Ichi]

This is absurd, all these people pretending that they know everything about everything. Your not a market expert or an mmo scientist. Please respectfully shut your mouths about how your opinion is thinking of the well-being of the game.

You are stating an opinion and calling it a fact, that's total and complete conjecture. I have no problem with people sharing their opinions but don't pretend like you know whats good for everyone. It's totally asinine.

[Ferth]

Shipp... You can't dissociate your negative view of FFXI. Everything you say in regards to it is based on an opinion but you are treating it as if it is fact.

And you're being pretty damn offensive about it. "If people who want to stagnate." You say it over and over again refusing to accept that it's only stagnant from your perspective.

Those same raids you are defending in WoW could easily be seen as stagnant to someone else. I could be labeling you as someone who likes to stagnate because you yourself have expressed an interest in running older content for the same reasons I've stated that people still run sky. It's a label that works either way because it is purely dependent on personal perspective.

Your arguments are not arguments based on a general consensus, they are arguments based on something you dislike vs something you do.

I'm not arguing that a static level cap is the best ever! I'm just pointing out that despite your personal opinion there were people who found value in the system. Just like there are people who find value in the system implemented by WoW.

Everything else is just proselytizing.

People want to come in here and say "I hated FFXI, erego it was bad and everyone who disagrees with me is in the minority." And that is not a position you can viably argue from.

If you didn't like having a static end game level, say that and move on. You aren't going to convince the people who did enjoy it that they are somehow wrong, and in the attempt we all come off as ignorant, and offensive.

[Shipp]

Shipp... You can't dissociate your negative view of FFXI. Everything you say in regards to it is based on an opinion but you are treating it as if it is fact.

And you're being pretty damn offensive about it. "If people who want to stagnate." You say it over and over again refusing to accept that it's only stagnant from your perspective.

I'm offensive, the poster right up there ^ told everyone who wants a level change to basically STFU and GTFO?

What is the definition of stagnate? Compare that to 75s in FFXI for 6 years. It IS stagnating. Where new content is being released or not, your character progression is staying stagnant.

Those same raids you are defending in WoW could easily be seen as stagnant to someone else. I could be labeling you as someone who likes to stagnate because you yourself have expressed an interest in running older content for the same reasons I've stated that people still run sky. It's a label that works either way because it is purely dependent on personal perspective.

There's a difference. I also run fresh content and realize that old content is old instead of trying to act as if it's somehow still part of the majority's "endgame hardcore" list.

Your arguments are not arguments based on a general consensus, they are arguments based on something you dislike vs something you do.

I personally don't care either way. I do like level cap increases, and I think they should do it. Guess what, my argument may be based on personal preference (it's really not, I've just stated how level cap increases aren't what killed off sky), but I'm sure Yoshi-P does have some data. He decided level raises were a good thing.

I'm not arguing that a static level cap is the best ever! I'm just pointing out that despite your personal opinion there were people who found value in the system. Just like there are people who find value in the system implemented by WoW.

Yes, I'm not denying there were people who found value in that system. I found value in never having to worry about a cap increase after I completely pimped out my Taru. That doesn't mean it was actually good for the game.

Everything else is just proselytizing.

Which is the same thing you're doing in the thread too. The point of the thread is to have a discussion and debate about which is better.

People want to come in here and say "I hated FFXI, erego it was bad and everyone who disagrees with me is in the minority." And that is not a position you can viably argue from.

I've never taken that stance. I didn't hate FFXI, I loved FFXI. However those who want a one-time level cap -are- in the minority, otherwise we'd be seeing it as the norm in MMOs.

If you didn't like having a static end game level, say that and move on. You aren't going to convince the people who did enjoy it that they are somehow wrong, and in the attempt we all come off as ignorant, and offensive.

Same can be said for you. If you don't like having an increasing level cap, say that and move on. Do you see how ridiculous your argument for this is? That's not being offensive, that's calling a spade a spade.

Edit:

Auctiongirl had an excellent post which explained how vertical is better than horizontal.

So if my rebuttals are so bad, then come up with some other reason why horizontal progression doesn't limit growth of the game.

Another statement: You can add in new weapons/armor that doesn't negate the existing.
Rebuttal: If you add in new weapons that are better, you just negated the old content anyways, and if you add in something that isn't better. Then why even get it? Your limited on inventory spaces anyways... With vertical progression, you will need these new weapons and armors, new recipes, new gathering locations/materials.

The problem with horizontal progression, is you are limiting the game to potential growth. Horizontal can only go so wide before it must go vertical. If you wait too long to go vertical, you lose all the players who don't like to repeat the same content 1000 times, and then you lose all the people who did and feel like they accomplished something by having +1 STR items over everyone else. If you do the merit system like FFXI, you are negating old content anyways, its another form of vertical progression, except the fact that now those old Rank 75 things are now super easy because of those merits.

People who had level 100 crafting after 1 year of the game, still had level 100 crafting after 7 years of the game. They were done crafting. With vertical progression, you can keep all players growing.

Here is an idea on how to keep older content relative... make existing weapons/armors upgradable by new and existing items. Capped areas, and update the existing content with new expansions (rank increases).

So list out all the pro's and con's for horizontal progression, and guaranteed that vertical progression pro's and con's will outweigh everything horizontal does (from a business perspective)

Has anyone actually tried to prove this false? No. Instead, it's degraded into mudslinging towards anyone who wants vertical, because "Horizontal worked in XI so it much be best," when it actually didn't work in XI for the reasons she stated.

[Ferth]

Now you are just putting words in people's mouths.

You are still trying to proselytize.

I am not trying to force anyone to my point of view, I'm trying to get accurate representation for both sides. I'd be just as happy if this thread or the previous one on the subject had two posts. "Like this if you are in favor of X" and "Like this if you are in favor of Y." Or hell, "Like this if you don't give a rats ass."

I recognize that my perspective is just as skewed as yours is. And I'm not trying to convince people who don't agree with me that they are somehow wrong.

I will, however, point out when an argument is weak.

And you know what. You are right about Auction Girl's post. She makes several really valid points. My highest craft in FFXI was 36 goldsmithing so I never experienced the stagnation of crafting. It was completely off my radar.

However since her post before that started out by saying "The FEW who liked this..." I largely ignored her... because as you pointed out; the only guy who dictates what's going on is Yoshida.

I am not taking the standpoint that if you disagree with me gtfo.

I just am tired of people coming up and saying "I didn't like this and all my friends didn't like this so it clearly isn't the best way to go."

My sole goal here is to ensure that the people who found value in the system of having a static level cap are represented and that the dev team considers that in their decision, regardless of which direction they end up going.

Everything that I've said has been in defense of it, and has been from my personal experience. I've not tried to speak for anyone but myself. When I have said something without having the full facts I've tried to make up for it. Our discussion about raids for example.

I have never said that Sky was just as relevant right before Abyssea as it was when it first released. I have merely pointed out that it still bore relevance.

But as Rjain pointed out about 5 pages ago, the debate, the arguing is largely worthless because no one is going to convince anyone else that their personal views are some how wrong.

At this point it then just comes down to that if you prefer one way or the other, just say so. Don't try to undermine one or the other, because it really is just personal opinion.