Level cap increase every 1-2 years.

[Rjain]

I love it. "You're too dumb so I'm not going to argue anymore!"

I understood your analogies rather well... And I recognize that as arguments go, they are smoke and mirrors. All bluster. Blanket statements that sound good but really have no merit.

"Everything is gonna change regardless, so stiff upper lip, bucko!" That argument could be used to argue any point of view on any subject. Its basically argumenting for nihilism. "We're all going to die so nothing we do contains meaning."

But then you tarted the statement up by saying that it's not the quantitative achievement that matters it's the experience you go through to achieve something. Essentially your point was that the gear is a token of the experience it took to get it, so when they raise the level cap though the gear may not be useful anymore you still had the joy of the experience.

Again, that can be used to argue both perspectives.

THEN you go on to comment that with a static level cap nothing truly replaces anything else all the items end up averaging out to the same meta-item so it doesn't matter which item you have, the new or the old, making all the new content in theory useless...

except that theory flies directly in the face of your previous argument about the items being secondary to the experience.

My point was that your opinion is your own, and you are welcome to it. But don't try to argue for it if the best you can do are specious arguments that you yourself are contradicting.

Okay Rhodes Scholar we're not analyzing each other in an attempt to sound more intellectual you have a ways to go if you're gonna try that one on me. That wasn't what I meant, nor did I call you dumb. Nor did anything you just say in that post have anything to do with anything I was talking about. Nor do I favour nihilism.

Stay on topic if you have a point to make and don't be a tit.

[weeble]

this is a horrible idea, every 1-2 years they will lose huge amounts of players to try and make the few they think they can gain by making old content easy useless garbage. they should of learned from empty zones like bibiki bay when new expansions came out and try tackaling a way to keep people using all content, old and new. if people complaining it would take them a year to get to where others are from expansions then good they getting there monies worth. again horrible choice in a game system they creating.

[Murugan]

You seem to think I am complaining. I'm not. I don't enjoy the changes they implemented in FFXI so I don't play it anymore. But I still did play it for 6 years, and the reason I kept playing it was my attachment to the experience I had in the game, when that experience turned into something I didn't enjoy I moved on. No MMO has captivated my attention like FFXI did. And yeah, it was a bummer when it changed in a way I didn't appreciate. If people can play it and enjoy it, more power to them.

I enjoyed what it used to be, and I'd like to experience something on the same scale. If I can play FFXIV for another 6 years and get even close to the same experience I had in FFXI I'd be happy.

If they opt for the WoW method chances are I will lose interest pretty quick. And then I will move on. I don't think I am the only one who feels that way. And I'd like the dev team to take my opinions and the opinions of others who feel the same way I do into consideration.

Considering this whole debate is based on an offhand remark without any solid planning behind it yet, it seems like a good time to let our voices be heard. So that the dev team can explore all possibilities when it gets to that point. Whatever they decide won't take away the experiences I've had so far, just like the introduction of abyssea in FFXI didn't negate the experiences I had in FFXI, it didn't negate the friendships I made or the things I accomplished in terms of how I remember them or enjoyed being a part of them...

But the fact remains now that alot of that content they spent years introducing to the game became alot less worthwhile. When the cap was static some people may have outgrown certain aspects but new players could still do older events and benefit from them, older players could still enjoy the content and the challenges involved older content, and everyone could enjoy the new content and challenges as well. Nothing stagnated except for individual taste.

With a constantly increasing level cap, with each new cap increase the previous content loses value, the veteran players who ground it to hell won't play it again, but the new players will more than likely skip right by it to get to whatever is going on for the current cap.

So instead of the experiences building and expanding on the experiences before them, each one gets replaced by whatever comes next.

yeah people who say otherwise just don't get it. No one is complaining about them putting in new content and rewards better than old, it is the needless destruction of old content which never gets played again for 99% of players old and new. It is a very stupid way to design your game.

[Ferth]

I'm not analyzing you. I'm deconstructing your arguments based on the premise that though they sound good, they really aren't.

You implied I didn't understand your analogies which wasn't true. But it doesn't suddenly give your arguments more weight either.

You could have stopped at saying you were in favor of an increasing level cap and been done with it, but then you insisted on using weak arguments to promote it. And when I pointed out that your arguments were weak you bluffed up and said apparently I don't understand what you are saying.

I'm not aiming to sound intellectual, I'm just debating my opinion. In this case it involves showing the weaknesses in opposing arguments. That's part of how a debate works.

If that makes me a tit, so be it.

[Rjain]

I'm not analyzing you. I'm deconstructing your arguments based on the premise that though they sound good, they really aren't.

You implied I didn't understand your analogies which wasn't true. But it doesn't suddenly give your arguments more weight either.

You could have stopped at saying you were in favor of an increasing level cap and been done with it, but then you insisted on using weak arguments to promote it. And when I pointed out that your arguments were weak you bluffed up and said apparently I don't understand what you are saying.

I'm not aiming to sound intellectual, I'm just debating my opinion. In this case it involves showing the weaknesses in opposing arguments. That's part of how a debate works.

If that makes me a tit, so be it.

Your deconstruction of my arguments again did not grasp any significant measure of what I was trying to convey nor were they accurate. The reason I had stated that I'd be done with the discussion is because I felt I'm probably not conveying the point clearly enough, not because I think you're dumb. Considering the fact that wasting this much time on such a topic is not constructive in the least I'd rather be done with it.

There's pros and cons to both sides. I see pros to your side, I also see some severe cons which would make me not want to experience that sort of gameplay. Whether or not you see pros and cons to my side point is you disagree with me we made our points let it end with that.

[Ferth]

Your deconstruction of my arguments again did not grasp any significant measure of what I was trying to convey nor were they accurate. The reason I had stated that I'd be done with the discussion is because I felt I'm probably not conveying the point clearly enough, not because I think you're dumb. Considering the fact that wasting this much time on such a topic is not constructive in the least I'd rather be done with it.

There's pros and cons to both sides. I see pros to your side, I also see some severe cons which would make me not want to experience that sort of gameplay. Whether or not you see pros and cons to my side point is you disagree with me we made our points let it end with that.

Fair enough.

I can agree to disagree.

[Tigercub]

Your deconstruction of my arguments again did not grasp any significant measure of what I was trying to convey nor were they accurate. The reason I had stated that I'd be done with the discussion is because I felt I'm probably not conveying the point clearly enough, not because I think you're dumb. Considering the fact that wasting this much time on such a topic is not constructive in the least I'd rather be done with it.

There's pros and cons to both sides. I see pros to your side, I also see some severe cons which would make me not want to experience that sort of gameplay. Whether or not you see pros and cons to my side point is you disagree with me we made our points let it end with that.

Agreed ^^
Mostly I'm only here debating that our side of the argument shouldn't just be brushed aside and called ridiculous, which some people have been doing. While I share Ferth's side of the debate, I don't share in any personal attacks he may have made. I respect your opinion, just as I'd hope you'd respect mine.

I just got kind of sick of people insinuating that my opinions were baseless or that the reason I didn't like the level increase in FFXI was because I ragequit over some loot, when in fact it was because the level increase all but forced me to participate in a piece of content which I didn't enjoy playing, and made the content I did enjoy mostly redundant.

[Ferth]

If I made comments that seemed like personal attacks I apologize. My main point was that alot of your arguments while being valid opinions, didn't argue your case for increasing level caps.

I agree wholeheartedly that the experiences you undergo while trying to get the items are more valuable in most cases than the items themselves, but I feel that is true in either situation.

I'm also fully aware that eventually everything will change, whether they are changes I like or not is strictly a personal matter. So again I don't consider it an argument in favor of either option.

I respect your opinion, even though I disagree with it. I just didn't see your arguments as defending your point, regardless of the validity of your arguments in their own right.

[weeble]

changing content every 1-2years is like trying to use the name of a good movie to make a part 2 that is nothing at all like it. within a few of these changes you aren't even playing the same game, and on top that the amount of story and content in it is half that. might as well start all over in a new mmo ..fresh , new stories, new graphics, new everything.... why keep paying them for a reboot.

[Shipp]

"You can still do it"? Oh man, thank you so much. I didn't realize I could still do things that are completely useless and boring. Now I know once I hit 50 I can still go outside Grid and kill a bunch of marmots. I was worried that the game would no longer let me.

I'm not stupid, I know I CAN still go do sky and sea and limbus. But it is no longer rewarding, and every single one was still rewarding until the level cap was raised. Maybe some hard-hard-hardcore players literally had obtained EVERYTHING and a had perfect gear sets for every single job, but the majority did not and still found it fun and useful to do, casual-mid-and hardcore alike, until the level cap was raised and all the rewards were obsolete.

There is a problem with your argument.


Your argument is begging the question: Did players really have fun in old content before Abyssea? The answer is no, the vast majority, or the very vocal minority (I'm going with majority from experience) were over and done with sky by the time ToAU came out, and they were over Sea before the game was even released. Nobody I know liked Sea except for limbus, and that was only because it was somewhat easy to accomplish in a timely manner. Sky took forever. You had to farm several NMs which didn't spawn but once every so many HOURS and then you had to pray for drops on others. This is with 3+ linkshells fighting over spawns and all spreading themselves over the entire zone. Not to mention the magic and sound aggro that was oh so appealing to die from 6+ years after we had already geared up from there. I just leveled my SMN with a friend and we'd kill pots. That was all sky was useful for to me, and many others. It was where BLMs, RDMs, and SMNs went to cap XP. Then Sea came out and BLMs capped there. Then ToAU came out and BLMs killed puddings to cap.

I quit around the end of ToAU, because I was so tired of all of my classes (mages) being essentially useless due to new mobs. It was not fun. A large part of this is due to SE favoring mages for so long during RoZ (MOAR BLMS) and CoP (MOAR SMNS). Then ToAU came and it was just zerg zerg zerg (MOAR MELEE). Sky was not fun by the time ToAU came about. Making it so Kirin could die in 45 seconds instead of 20 minutes to an hour completely killed the experience. It was fun having epic long boss battles... just not every single encounter being that way.


Having played both WoW and FFXI to cap, I would much prefer a 5-10 level increase about every 2 years. I think every year is a bit fast, because some people do like to go at a slower pace and some have to take extended breaks for RL issues. Every 2 years is about perfect though. If they do not raise the cap, especially past 50, it's going to turn out like XI. There are only so many side-grades you can give to people before it's so minimal that nobody cares anymore. When you start introducing up-grades in gear, then all of that other content is irrelevant anyway. I'd much rather have a 5-10 level increase every expac instead of being led on that there was absolutely NO WAY that the cap would increase due to mechanics (lolsubjobs 40+ oh noes), even when the playerbase has explained HOW these issues can be solved very easily, and then 7 years down the road, "Hey guys, you know how we didn't raise the cap through all of those expacs? Oops, here's 20 levels, have fun. Oh, and leveling means peanuts now in these new zones, rush to the cap NAO NAO NAO!!!"

I'm not trolling, honestly. I just think XI players who are making this argument are either -not- from before ToAU or they are wearing the rose colored glasses.

Level capped areas could have stayed level capped, and a good way to circumvent the problem of not doing them anymore would have been this. RoZ and CoP unlocked zones by completing, or almost completing them. This was a good idea and forced people to complete those missions. However, those zones are no longer worth going to, because it was -only- for endgame. Simple solution? Stop making those zones -only- for endgame. What if an expac unlocked not only a high level endgame zone, but also gave a reason to keep coming back to it once you've surpassed the cap?