Tank asked BLM to "mark and sleep"? Is this normal?

[Viviza]

As the BLM, and I assume the more experienced between you two, I think you're more in the wrong in this matter.

Asking something unexpected shouldn't draw immediate indignation and refusal. Asking a DPS to mark is rare, but it is certainly something you are able to do.

SV can be rough on a newbie tank and sleep can help a lot. I've recently re-learned the value of repose as a WHM in lowbie dungeons where inexperienced tanks simply cannot hold threat on all the mobs at once when healing needs are high. In a roundabout way, that tank probably had enough on his plate, was feeling stressed, and was hoping to delegate away some responsibility. Not doing so made his job harder. I know when I'm tanking and my party is not cooperating with me, I don't feel terribly motivated to give my full effort either.

[givemeraptors]

As the BLM, and I assume the more experienced between you two, I think you're more in the wrong in this matter.

Asking something unexpected shouldn't draw immediate indignation and refusal. Asking a DPS to mark is rare, but it is certainly something you are able to do.

I have to agree. He doesn't sound like a great tank but honestly, Stone Vigil is one of the few (only?) dungeons with frequent and powerful patrols that can easily wipe your party. It requires high awareness and is quite stressful on tanks/healers.

Also, DPS marking is not even that unusual. I will frequently as a DPS mark high priority targets if the tank doesn't do so, and I won't hold it against that tank because it's everyone's job to make a run as smooth as possible. Nothing but common practice dictates that marking is the tanks job and if you are sleeping targets the priority is on you to mark what you slept so no one else touches it.

[Raestloz]

As the BLM, and I assume the more experienced between you two, I think you're more in the wrong in this matter.

Asking something unexpected shouldn't draw immediate indignation and refusal. Asking a DPS to mark is rare, but it is certainly something you are able to do.

SV can be rough on a newbie tank and sleep can help a lot. I've recently re-learned the value of repose as a WHM in lowbie dungeons where inexperienced tanks simply cannot hold threat on all the mobs at once when healing needs are high. In a roundabout way, that tank probably had enough on his plate, was feeling stressed, and was hoping to delegate away some responsibility. Not doing so made his job harder. I know when I'm tanking and my party is not cooperating with me, I don't feel terribly motivated to give my full effort either.

It's certainly something I can do, but in a team, you are expected to do your job. He obviously knew the value of marking, why he didn't do just that was beyond me. He never said anything about marking beyond that initial one. Not cooperating is one thing (e.g. overgeared DPS not giving a s**t about enmity level), not doing your job is an entirely different thing, that would mean you're the one not cooperating.

That's partly why I asked. If this is commonplace, I'll start to do it on E party.

BLM Sleep is an AE past level 36, there is little sense in them marking anything they slept because of this. If it can be slept and is in the pack of mobs it's going to be sleeping.

If he was new you should have probably explained that to him.

Even when I was using WHM and Repose (which is single-target), marking bound targets was of little value, mostly because the tank had marked stuff, and/or DPS simply stopped using AoE.

I don't really know how "new" he was. He knew the value of marking, so he's not a total newbie. He had obtained Warrior AF, so he's been around for some time. I mean, how do you get to level 45 and not know what your class is supposed to be doing?

[givemeraptors]

It's certainly something I can do, but in a team, you are expected to do your job.

Everyone has access to marking, it is not a tank-specific ability. Therefore, it is not inherently part of their job. It has come to be seen as something tanks do as de facto "leaders" of a party, but tanks can follow marks just as blindly as DPS can. I have run dungeons where a DPS did all the marking and it went just as smoothly, if not more, since they were following their own marks.

I forgot about BLM aoe sleep at that level, and it's totally possible the tank didn't know that is a BLM trait (I didn't until I actually leveled a BLM). I don't see why you're refusing his request based on artificially enforced guidelines that no one actually needs to follow i.e. tanks and only tanks mark.

[Raestloz]

I don't see why you're refusing his request based on artificially enforced guidelines that no one actually needs to follow i.e. tanks and only tanks mark.

For the same reason nobody walks down the Hollywood completely naked: it's the norm. There are two kinds of laws: written and unwritten. Written laws say that tanks need to tank, just as BLM need to actually kill things. Unwritten laws say tanks need to mark, just as BLM needs to sleep if the mobs can be put to sleep and the tank can't take the incoming damage instead of just keep using Fire Fire Fire

Just because tanks usually do it doesn't make it their job. It sounds more like you saw something unusual, but not wrong per se, and simply refused out of habit.

As the more experienced player you were in a better position to help the run, or at least communicate.

I actually see it as a bad habit. I refused because I believe that while DPS can mark as well as the next guy, they can't take damage as well as the next tank. Tanks need to mark to ensure that the DPS are hitting the correct mobs at the correct time so they don't steal enmity so easily and disrupt the flow of combat, time that can be used to generate even more enmity on that mob that is on the verge of running to the healer.

HOWEVER, I also know that different culture may have different way, which is why I'm here asking. If what he did is, in fact, the norm in E culture, then that'd be what I do next time that happens.

I actually do not see the value in the effort to antagonize me that some people here do. Becoming a makeshift hero and making me look like a jackal now won't magically make him tank better in the past.

[Viviza]

It's certainly something I can do, but in a team, you are expected to do your job. He obviously knew the value of marking, why he didn't do just that was beyond me. He never said anything about marking beyond that initial one. Not cooperating is one thing (e.g. overgeared DPS not giving a s**t about enmity level), not doing your job is an entirely different thing, that would mean you're the one not cooperating.

Just because tanks usually do it doesn't make it their job. It sounds more like you saw something unusual, but not wrong per se, and simply refused out of habit.

As the more experienced player you were in a better position to help the run, or at least communicate.

[Cap75]

The healer in my FC I usually run with has a macro on his repose that places the ignore mark on the target so I guess I'm just used to it and don't see much of an issue with it. We found it useful in early dungeons but we never really use it anymore. It's just quicker to burn everything down. As a tank I'd rather have the healer concentrate on healing lol. The only exception being that when we speed run Bray HM with a scholar we've gotten in the habit of group sleeping the last mob before the first boss to lock them out rather than the typical pull.

[NintenPyjak64]

I've played BLM in SV before with new tanks and the only times I ever felt the need to use sleep were on Ice Sprites. CC feels so unnecessary in most scenarios, even if the tank is new/slightly under geared, as long as the healer's on the ball and the tank understands the concept of holding agro

[Viviza]

I've played BLM in SV before with new tanks and the only times I ever felt the need to use sleep were on Ice Sprites. CC feels so unnecessary in most scenarios, even if the tank is new/slightly under geared, as long as the healer's on the ball and the tank understands the concept of holding agro

But this is relative. When you run low level dungeons you are going to get tanks who are woefully unprepared in both gear and experience. And that's the point - these dungeons are designed to give this gear and experience. These tanks are in a learning process in more ways than one, and any efforts to make their job less stressful offers a great relief. Being a tank when tanking is not going well is rough, and doubly so when the group has 50s who really just want a speed run.

I would argue that as more experienced players we have an obligation help these players out. We should be offering advice, using control, and being careful, even if these are not "optimal" ways to run through a dungeon.

[Judge_Xero]

Not really necessary for the BLM to mark. At that level the BLM sleep is AOE. Tank and others just need to not wake up any adds you aren't dealing with at the moment.

The tank should be marking what he wants you attacking while politely asking you to sleep everything else.