The "To DPS" vs "Not DPS" Debate

[givemeraptors]

That's fine if you don't mind slower completion times for yourself and your groups, but I don't see why you wouldn't want to contribute as much as possible. A DPSing healer in a faceroll dungeon speeds up the process considerably.

I actually DPS quite often, whether from being in a hurry, bored, or what have you. But sometimes I just want to play and eat dinner or something. The last thing I want to hear during those moments are party members chastising me for not DPSing.

Then you aren't doing your jobs full potential hunny ^^
SE gave you spells to deal damage, and as a scholar you have
a much easier task as healing and dpsing. If you are just standing there
you definitely won't get my commendation :P

We have damage spells and Cleric Stance for solo content, not to help out in dungeons.
SE already nerfed Holy because they felt WHMs were being pressured to DPS when it wasn't their job. I believe the quote was something like:
"Holy was nerfed because speedrunners placed a lot of pressure on White Mages to DPS. Healers are healers, not DPSers."
Now when things go wrong I expect people to adapt. DRGs tank, BRDs kite, SMNs toss Physicks... but in a typical run? Nah.

As for commendations I don't mind. I already have 500+ ^_^

I feel this more like telling the tank to switch between Shield Oath and Sword Oath. I do not hear people screaming at the tank to switch to increase DPS even if they can hold hate on trash mobs or most bosses.

Your first post and I love it.

[bdp12]

When you out gear a dungeon, I just don't understand why you would even want to just stand around and do nothing, especially in a low level roulette. The healing requirements are practically nil if the tank has a high iLvl, but a little more attention would need to be paid for a tank in weaker gear. Nothing instajibs a tank in any of these low level dungeons, so there is really no reason not to be dpsing in cleric. Jeez if you are really lazy, you can just toss a couple of cures while in cleric stance then go back to dpsing.

[Staris]

"We have damage spells and Cleric Stance for solo content, not to help out in dungeons."
Then it wouldn't work in groups.

Being lazy and bad and eating while wasting other peoples time is your decision.
Just admit it and move on.

[bdp12]

Being lazy and bad and eating while wasting other peoples time is your decision.

I lol'ed. How many pulls does it take to finish a piece of pizza anyway?

[Staris]

I feel this more like telling the tank to switch between Shield Oath and Sword Oath. I do not hear people screaming at the tank to switch to increase DPS even if they can hold hate on trash mobs or most bosses.

That is because having a sword oath tank would be a small increase in dps, possibly even a loss when you factor in the added heals the healer has to cast.
Where the healer could doing far more damage then a paladin instead of 0. FAR FAR more.

Which do you prioritize fixing?

In our premade speed runs we actually use warriors with 30 points in str and STR accessories on also but not asking every tank to have that ready. Not asking the healers to have dps BIS gear/melds, food, and use mind pots. Asking them to perform slightly more optimally instead of getting carried. It makes a big difference in time AND success rate.

[Anova]

I feel this more like telling the tank to switch between Shield Oath and Sword Oath. I do not hear people screaming at the tank to switch to increase DPS even if they can hold hate on trash mobs or most bosses.

That's an interesting idea. I've seen some paladins manage to do that, and it receives quite a few comments for its unconventionality. As you well know, the problem is balancing enmity generation from shield oath and the dps from your paladin. Some do pull it off quite spectacularly, but they are generally overgeared.

As a side note, cleric stancing is more difficult to do if you or the party are at lower ilvl for the content you're tackling. There are some skill combinations and movement mechanics the party can use to mitigate damage and give the whitemage more time to dps, and holy's aoe stun and damage is undoubtedly powerful, but most content will not see more dps from an appropriately geared WHM than the usual dot maintenance and a few attacks. You definitely do not see healers switching to cleric stance for long periods of time (enough to holy spam) in Coil and Extreme Primals. They, especially scholars, will still weave in to it when they can though.

I think the only reason tank dps hasn't caught on yet is because nobody knows or expects it. It's something to look forward to I think. Another reason is that everyone knows about cleric stance. Every CNJ gets it at Lv.8, but tanks have to reach Lv.30 or Lv.40 to play with their tanking mechanics.

Warriors have an easier time switching off defiance as their job feature requires the toggling of tank and dps rotations for optimum play. That is another reason to consider a warrior tank over a paladin if that suits your playstyle. If anything, I think the necessity of clerics stance falls somewhere between the Warrior's toggling of defiance and the paladin's toggling of sword/shield. It's not strictly necessary, but it does help things considerably and the benefits have to be weighed with the risk.

[Ashkendor]

If you're a Scholar and you've got your hands full, you're doing your job.
If you're a White Mage and you've got your hands full, things are going very wrong.

After playing Scholar, I find it very hard to DPS on a White Mage. It just feels... clunky. On SCH I have no problem dropping into cleric stance, throwing out a full set of DoTs and a Shadow Flare, and then switching back to do some healing. As a White Mage, I feel like I'm locked into long cast animations and the only thing I can really effectively do most of the time is get Aero and Aero II on things. I don't like playing it because I *do* feel like I have a lot of down time and I'm not sure what to do with it (this is discounting standard things like buffing or debuffing, etc). Maybe it's just the fact that SCH has its origins in a dps class where WHM is a healer from the get-go?

I feel this more like telling the tank to switch between Shield Oath and Sword Oath. I do not hear people screaming at the tank to switch to increase DPS even if they can hold hate on trash mobs or most bosses.

There are actually times it's appropriate to switch to Sword Oath. I do it pretty often when I'm not MT.

So yeah, basically never in four-man content; it would be when solo/fate grinding or in eight man content.

[Segraine]

Most of the Scholar's attack spells also debuff the enemy. This is more important than the damage done. The blinds and slows decrease the incoming damage, which is the job of the Scholar. Shadow Flare is useful with or without Clerics. Ruin 2's blind is nice when a mage pulls hate. Weaving into Cleric's Stance should be automatic for a scholar, but even when the pressure doesn't allow it, a Shadow Flare is still a good choice. A scholar that doesn't take advantage of her offensive protection spells is making her job a little more difficult. It isn't about the DPS. Using the DPS spells a scholar has is about protecting the party.

[SeraviEdalborez]

Most of the Scholar's attack spells also debuff the enemy. This is more important than the damage done. The blinds and slows decrease the incoming damage, which is the job of the Scholar. Shadow Flare is useful with or without Clerics. Ruin 2's blind is nice when a mage pulls hate. Weaving into Cleric's Stance should be automatic for a scholar, but even when the pressure doesn't allow it, a Shadow Flare is still a good choice. A scholar that doesn't take advantage of her offensive protection spells is making her job a little more difficult. It isn't about the DPS. Using the DPS spells a scholar has is about protecting the party.

You are highly overrating the Slow (which many bosses are immune to) and the Blind (which most bosses are immune to, if not it never causes an actual miss, as well as the problem with diminishing returns). Blind isn't even best-used by a SCH or SMN; if you have a PLD, their blind from Flash lasts longer. Even though, again, Blind is pretty worthless as "mitigation".

[KikoriL]

After playing Scholar, I find it very hard to DPS on a White Mage. It just feels... clunky. <snip>

CNJs still have to get used to offense to do their solo quests, so they should have practice.
You still have a fairy casting while you're doing dps, so you at least know the tank won't drop without at some healing first. But WHMs have a smaller window of opportunity for DPS. Stance on for six seconds, and then ~2 seconds of Cure cast time after. Eight+ seconds of a tank taking damage.
Two spells during stance is a good start. Turn it on, Aero II + Aero, off, cure, on, Stone II x2, off, etc. It becomes a lot easier to plan for how you get used to your DPS. I know I can get away with letting Stoneskin fade away during Aeros, so one regen later, I can just leave Stance on and Stone blast the tank's target easily (on a normal pull). The dps is great, and it's only a couple cures after that mob drops to bring up the tank from like 50% HP.