The "To DPS" vs "Not DPS" Debate

[Ghishlain]

The biggest fallacy in this "debate", and I use that word loosely, is the perception that your DPS isn't "required" and that your party's "real" DPS are terrible if it IS required. There is a similar topic over in the tank forums where other like-minded people are saying tank DPS isn't "required".

It isn't required. If you're at the appropriate ilvl, your DPS should be able to get past all the DPS gates without your help. However, with that being said:

Ok. So it isn't required. But let me ask: why should a fight tuned to be beaten in 5 minutes be beaten in 5 minutes? Why not 4 minutes? Or 3? It's not a matter of overgearing content; you can do this from Sastasha right up to Aurum Vale. In AF gear, in Darklight, whatever. Your DPS can be performing just fine and you can help clear faster. And then be doing whatever else you want to be doing.

I agree with this fully as well. I personally enjoy pushing the threshold of my class to the fullest and want to maximize my contribution to my party. This is the drive to allow the hard core endgame raiders to be just that, end game raiders. This type of mentality is not for everyone though and in fact, pushing someone beyond their limit could have negative consequences to the overall party dynamic.

My personal point of contention in the entire debate is two things:

• You're automatically labeled "bad" by only using your healing abilities
• You're automatically labeled "bad" by providing additional DPS to the group dynamic because you have the skills and gear to do so

Neither has any truth to it, yet healers are constantly being scrutinized and patronized for their "contribution" to a party because there's a disagreeable tank or DPS that don't like that particular play style.

If the healer is keeping you healthy, regardless of what they do (or do NOT do, in some opinions), they're fulfilling their role. Anything additional to that is gravy to the healer toolkit.

[Raestloz]

The biggest fallacy in this "debate", and I use that word loosely, is the perception that your DPS isn't "required" and that your party's "real" DPS are terrible if it IS required.

The biggest fallacy is actually the belief that healers need to DPS. They don't, in any way you can define the word 'need', need to DPS: there are 5 entire jobs that should fill that role. The Healers' role is that of the Healer: making sure the party can stay alive and well. Your scenario is not a point of Healer needing to DPS, but rather a scenario where the Healer can, optionally, contribute to the team a little bit.

The topic is arguing whether Healers need to DPS. The obvious answer is NO.Any complaints for the Healer should be about their lack of healing, not their lack of damage-dealing

BIG, FAT, NOTE:
At no point did I propose that a damage-dealing Healer is bad, especially if the party's DPS is undergeared and can't pass the DPS check unless the healer contributes. However, in this scenario the fault still lies entirely on the DPS for being undergeared, not on the Healer. It simply falls to the Healer whether they want to pass the content or not.

BIG, FAT, NOTE 2:
At no point did I propose that it's totally a-OK for SMN to refuse to Resurrect when they are needed. Unlike Healers, who need to race with casting time to make sure everybody's alive, DPS are generally not too time-constrained. Unless it's a DPS-check, 1 damage per second for 10 seconds and 10 damage in one second will still achieve the same result. There are also cases where a party member simply did not get out of the AoE in time and got OHKO-ed, which is not the Healer's fault. If the healer is busy keeping the SMN's ass from cleaning the floor, it falls to the SMN to not be a dbag and use that Resurrect

[Vaara]

The topic is arguing whether Healers need to DPS. The obvious answer is NO.Any complaints for the Healer should be about their lack of healing, not their lack of damage-dealing

Clearly they don't need to, but if the opportunity arises then they should want to. I would prefer to be as useful as possible rather than just doing the bare minimum to get by.

[Ghishlain]

i don't ever bring it up in /p but imo a healer who stands around waiting for someone to take dmg is just as bad as a blm who spams ice spells when he's at full mp, they're both not doing what they could be doing.. i'm not a dick about it but they clearly arn't trying their best

Clearly they don't need to, but if the opportunity arises then they should want to. I would prefer to be as useful as possible rather than just doing the bare minimum to get by.

I agree, if there is idle time and the healer in question is idling, this is a perfect opportunity to learn how to stance dance and DPS. However, this doesn't make a healer "bad" in the definition of "bad".

Funny enough though, this thread was inspired by a friend of mine who was cussed at for doing "too much".

(Friend on WHM) "Why are you not dodging 100 tonze swing?"
(BLM in DR) "if you got time to nuke your not working hard your a f---ing healer not a black mage play your job properly" [Censored since I don't want to get bant =p]

[sheepysheepy]

i don't ever bring it up in /p but imo a healer who stands around waiting for someone to take dmg is just as bad as a blm who spams ice spells when he's at full mp, they're both not doing what they could be doing.. i'm not a dick about it but they clearly arn't trying their best

[givemeraptors]

i don't ever bring it up in /p but imo a healer who stands around waiting for someone to take dmg is just as bad as a blm who spams ice spells when he's at full mp, they're both not doing what they could be doing.. i'm not a dick about it but they clearly arn't trying their best

Your comparison doesn't work. DPS are supposed to maximize their damage, spamming Blizzard is directly gimping a BLM. A healer not DPSing is not at all gimping their role of healing.

[Staris]

Your comparison doesn't work. DPS are supposed to maximize their damage, spamming Blizzard is directly gimping a BLM. A healer not DPSing is not at all gimping their role of healing.

Your limited perspective of encounters is so funny.
So DPS shouldnt worry about mana song for a healer?
or popping Virus/Eye for eye?
because its not the role they signed up for?

You are capable of doing damage and healing in perfect capacity.
If you are maximizing both for the group, you are bad.

If you don't understand the concept, you are bad.

That is all

[RhazeCain]

Your comparison doesn't work. DPS are supposed to maximize their damage, spamming Blizzard is directly gimping a BLM. A healer not DPSing is not at all gimping their role of healing.

Stop thinking of a role so narrowly. Everyone's role is to make the run be successful.

Why is this even labeled a debate? Many times a healer can keep everyone alive while only using a percentage of their time. The remainder can be used either to DPS, or for useless unnecessary stuff. So of course you DPS then. As the difficulty of fight increases, maybe you heal more and DPS less. And then there are the cases where win or lose depends on the group's DPS: Titan Heart, fast conflag in t5, super slug in t6, etc. Healer DPS can then be the difference between win and lose (same for tank).

[givemeraptors]

Your limited perspective of encounters is so funny.

Stop thinking of a role so narrowly. Everyone's role is to make the run be successful.

Wow. I never realized what a close-minded person I was. I didn't say anything about whether it's appropriate for a healer to DPS or not DPS, merely that it was a bad comparison and it is.

If you're going to use a BLM that only spams Blizzard as a point of reference than you should be comparing them to a healer that only spams Cure I.
If you're going to make this about a healer DPSing or not DPSing and compare them to a BLM then a more appropriate point of reference would be a BLM that doesn't use Manwall, Manaward, or Aetherial Manipulation.

Both are not necessary tools to pull off the job compentently, yet someone who truly excels at the role will use everything they have (even Surecast).

But thanks for jumping to conclusions.

[SeleneVenizelos]

There are situations where you're guaranteed DPS time and situations where DPSing might put your party in danger. The trick to being a top notch healer lies in identifying these situations from experience and maximising your contribution to a party.

A healer is not a bad healer for just healing but they're a bad player if they are otherwise stood scratching their arse. Healers are given Cleric's Stance and an arsenal of offensive spells for a reason. That reason is not for smoother solo play. A lot of dungeons are designed around monsters not annihilating your tanks in seconds. There are plenty of moments where you'll find time to yourself to stance dance and throw a few DoTs or nukes around before returning to your healing duties.

Doing the bare minimum of your job is what I would consider being a bad player. You could be good at the bare minimum; I have met plenty of healers who never let people die but they don't do much else. Yes, they are good healers but they're not good players. A good player plays to the best of their job's ability whilst maintaining their key responsibilities.

You could say this is merely a debate of semantics since people have varying degrees of good and bad. What most people seem to be saying here is not that somebody is a good or bad healer if they do or do not nuke. They're saying somebody is a bad player if all they do is heal when they have time to nuke or people die because their healer is too busy nuking.

That said, it happens with every job. Some people are okay with doing the bare minimum. Others make the effort to be the best at their job and take advantage of every mechanic possible to make the group's progress more efficient. Dragoons who use Mantra when there's no Monk for big hits, tanks that swap between Sword and Shield Oath depending on their duty, etc. There are many examples that we could use to label people on other jobs as 'good' or 'bad', but I would argue such players are good or bad players, and not good or bad Dragoons/Paladins/etc.

Same for healers. If a healer just nukes or heals I would call them a bad and lazy player, not a bad healer.