The "To DPS" vs "Not DPS" Debate

[Staris]

I feel this more like telling the tank to switch between Shield Oath and Sword Oath. I do not hear people screaming at the tank to switch to increase DPS even if they can hold hate on trash mobs or most bosses.

That is because having a sword oath tank would be a small increase in dps, possibly even a loss when you factor in the added heals the healer has to cast.
Where the healer could doing far more damage then a paladin instead of 0. FAR FAR more.

Which do you prioritize fixing?

In our premade speed runs we actually use warriors with 30 points in str and STR accessories on also but not asking every tank to have that ready. Not asking the healers to have dps BIS gear/melds, food, and use mind pots. Asking them to perform slightly more optimally instead of getting carried. It makes a big difference in time AND success rate.

[Anova]

I feel this more like telling the tank to switch between Shield Oath and Sword Oath. I do not hear people screaming at the tank to switch to increase DPS even if they can hold hate on trash mobs or most bosses.

That's an interesting idea. I've seen some paladins manage to do that, and it receives quite a few comments for its unconventionality. As you well know, the problem is balancing enmity generation from shield oath and the dps from your paladin. Some do pull it off quite spectacularly, but they are generally overgeared.

As a side note, cleric stancing is more difficult to do if you or the party are at lower ilvl for the content you're tackling. There are some skill combinations and movement mechanics the party can use to mitigate damage and give the whitemage more time to dps, and holy's aoe stun and damage is undoubtedly powerful, but most content will not see more dps from an appropriately geared WHM than the usual dot maintenance and a few attacks. You definitely do not see healers switching to cleric stance for long periods of time (enough to holy spam) in Coil and Extreme Primals. They, especially scholars, will still weave in to it when they can though.

I think the only reason tank dps hasn't caught on yet is because nobody knows or expects it. It's something to look forward to I think. Another reason is that everyone knows about cleric stance. Every CNJ gets it at Lv.8, but tanks have to reach Lv.30 or Lv.40 to play with their tanking mechanics.

Warriors have an easier time switching off defiance as their job feature requires the toggling of tank and dps rotations for optimum play. That is another reason to consider a warrior tank over a paladin if that suits your playstyle. If anything, I think the necessity of clerics stance falls somewhere between the Warrior's toggling of defiance and the paladin's toggling of sword/shield. It's not strictly necessary, but it does help things considerably and the benefits have to be weighed with the risk.

[Chiramu]

If DPS turn to healing then they are not DPSing. A DPS who helps with healing is less effective than a DPS who cannot heal.

You are more effective doing the role that you signed up to perform in duty. The only time you should be doing DPS and I mean, fast DPS like DOT damage not 2.80 second cast time of Holy is on trash (if the tank is not dying) plenty of time I've had a healer spam Holy while my HP is 20%. On big boss fights heals should not dps and instead should be keeping their MP pools good for when the shit hits the fan.

[ariaandkia]

If DPS turn to healing then they are not DPSing. A DPS who helps with healing is less effective than a DPS who cannot heal.

You are more effective doing the role that you signed up to perform in duty. The only time you should be doing DPS and I mean, fast DPS like DOT damage not 2.80 second cast time of Holy is on trash (if the tank is not dying) plenty of time I've had a healer spam Holy while my HP is 20%. On big boss fights heals should not dps and instead should be keeping their MP pools good for when the shit hits the fan.

I personally think there is a time and a place for everything. A DPS might have a good reason to help with healing. For example, healer is struggling to heal and I notice that the tank will die soon, enemies are nowhere near dead. I'll mix in a few heals with my DPS rotations just to keep the tank stable. Or healer is being attacked and I can't pull aggro fast enough to save the healer, I might throw some heals to buy some time for the tank to react or for the healer to find some way to recover. Yes, my DPS is less effective, but I'm helping the party more than if I were to just DPS. It really depends on the situation.

Example, Healer disconnected. I notice, nobody else notices. I happen to have physick ready in case of this situation occurring. I quickly switch to healing and heal until the boss is dead, then I tell the party that we should wait for the actual healer to return.

So instead of a party wipe, I temporarily reduce my DPS in exchange for keeping the party alive. I think all the generalizations here are pretty bad because there are exceptions to most of them.

[Staris]

So Summmoners don't ressurect people
DPS casters dont use virus or apothasistitis whatevermagiky, or eye for an eye
Monks / Bards dont use mantra, mana song, or anything like that
ect ect

Because that doesn't help them dps right?

Bads who cannot see outside there role to the maximum of the potential of there class for the group will always be bad.

[Ghishlain]

Bads who cannot see outside there role to the maximum of the potential of there class for the group will always be bad.

My intent was to at least indicate that there is a grade a player can achieve between these two points, and not just "Yay, you're awesome!" and "OMG YOU'RE HORRIBLE". Just because you aren't making full use off your toolbox doesn't mean you're a bad player, it just means you're performing your role, but you can continue to improve. There are just too many condescending and meaningless posts screaming "YOU'RE BAD IF YOU ONLY HEAL" or "YOU'RE BAD IF YOU DPS AS HEALER" that I wanted to make a vain attempt to at least quell those remarks by injecting some form of logic into it (keyword, vain).

For myself, I am not content with my playing until I can optimize the majority of my toolbox myself. However, for some people, they are okay with just being "okay" and as long as I'm tanking and I'm not a bloody smear on the ground, I'm okay with that from a healer (though I may have varying degrees of ire that I keep to myself depending on how often my HP hits the flashing point and for how long).

This isn't a two sided coin we're discussing here, this is a scale with every grey area in between the minimum and maximum points.

[Everdark]

So Summmoners don't ressurect people
DPS casters dont use virus or apothasistitis whatevermagiky, or eye for an eye
Monks / Bards dont use mantra, mana song, or anything like that
ect ect

Because that doesn't help them dps right?

Bads who cannot see outside there role to the maximum of the potential of there class for the group will always be bad.

most DPS actually do exactly this, especially in DF. The only time DPS put in the effort to be "good" is with statics

[sheldorAFK]

I am not new to MMOs but I am new to playing a healer. I've never wanted to have that much responsibility before. If DPS is lackluster you can get better gear or tune-up your rotation. If healing isn't up to snuff the entire party could wipe. For some reason though upon joining FFxiv the first class I began to level was conjurer and I've really been enjoying it. Yet, whenever this argument comes up I begin to have questions.

I PUG almost exclusively. I've never been told my healing sucks. I've never been told I should be DPSing. Sometimes I have to work my butt off just to keep the tank alive. Sometimes I have time to use my target of target macros to do a little damage or lay down dots. But when I read someone saying 'in 4 man content' if a healer is 'only healing' they are 'bad' I have to wonder do they mean the level 50 overgeared folk or those who are on level for the dungeon as well? (I don't have a 50 yet so am still going into some of these dungeons for the first time.)

[lxSch]

If DPS turn to healing then they are not DPSing. A DPS who helps with healing is less effective than a DPS who cannot heal.

You are more effective doing the role that you signed up to perform in duty. The only time you should be doing DPS and I mean, fast DPS like DOT damage not 2.80 second cast time of Holy is on trash (if the tank is not dying) plenty of time I've had a healer spam Holy while my HP is 20%. On big boss fights heals should not dps and instead should be keeping their MP pools good for when the shit hits the fan.

Keeping people more healthy than alive is pointless, healer would just stand idle a lot in this case.

During most of fights healer will not run out of mana, unless he is massively overhealing and reviving bad players that would die again anyway. It's much better to keep only core people alive and let the rest stay dead (rage quit if they want). Thus saving mana is pointless.

[Yuichi]

It should be noted that new players looking at this should wait and get a feel for the healing part before diping into the dps as well. Seen to many new healers spam stone, tank dies, and they look like derps because they didnt heal at all. Once ok, twice no, third time kick.