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  1. #21
    Player
    Lucke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,661
    Character
    Lucke Arrayo
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by MoonFrog View Post
    As a tank, I have one dungeon run that really got to me. I was a 28 marauder in hauke mannor with two dps level sync'd from 50 to 32 both with their job crystals. They insisted on dpsing separate targets and sometimes would even pull additional targets by accident and go straight to dpsing them before I could establish hate. This was especially bad on the bosses where on the first one the healer let me die saying "oh i thought i was a mnk, forgot to heal," and then when i'm ressed the dps dont let up for a second to let me get some aggro back. I get it back but never so strongly that full thrust wont pivot it off me for a second. Then on the last boss, I tried to tank the adds when they popped but the dps just stayed on the boss and took threat. It was just a really awful experience, even if I managed to keep threat 90% of the time on the mobs it was tough to do so.
    I had the same problem in Haukke. I was leveling MRD who was like, 28-29, with DPS that had their jobs. I could not hold aggro to save my life. Probably because I didn't have Defiance since that's at level 30. I got so mad. I would tell the DPS to lay off since I didn't have Defiance and they were looking at me like I was speaking some alien language. They kept pulling aggro and would not slow down. I got so mad, that I just stopped bothering trying to take mobs off them, because while I was doing that, I'd lose aggro on the other mobs.

    And Rex. For bosses with adds, GENERALLY, DPS can kill them without you needing to tank them. Boss adds have garbage HP, so DPS should be able to kill them before they do any major damage to the DPS. For the most part, just focus on the boss. If you see your healer running around with an add, I'd throw a Provoke and a Shield Lob/Tomahawk and tank the add, or if an add spawned next to me, I'd tank that, but generally the DPS can take out DPS on their own without your help.
    (0)

  2. #22
    Player
    T1M0N's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    104
    Character
    Timon Krynos
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 50
    There is not much to do when your dps can't wait you to generate some enimity before engaging.
    The worst case can be seen in brayflox.People always ask BLM or at least BRD+BLM.
    I can understand that but most of the time the BLM are either not waiting the tanks to generate aggro or they don't use quelling strikes.My main class is DRG and MNK but my BLM is pretty nice geared so i do some runs and i have to use my quelling strikes for PLD tanks.I can then pull out 3 flare and i won't have the aggro on me.But a lot of time i saw some wipes because the BLM goes raging strikes and spam aoe like a total retard when the paladin didn' teven flash all the mob already(at least2 flash is needed to get all of them).
    A lot of dps are retarded i can pretty much tell you that.They like to feel powerful and they must be proud of themself when they take aggro thinking they're dealing so much damage i think.Can't do much they're kjust stupid.
    (0)

  3. #23
    Player
    Valendore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    17
    Character
    Valenora Battleforge
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
    It already has been buffed by a crapload. Any more and they might as well just get rid of enmity altogether and just have enemies target tanks automatically.
    Good, I think it should be removed or pumped up like in WoW, where dps and healers cannot even come close to tanks in threat. Having it this way would fix sooo many of the complaints we see. What is the number 1 complaint about tanks? Cannot hold threat. With so many people deciding not to tank because of all the complaints, lets fix that problem so more people would be willing to tank again, including myself. I want to tank in this game, but past games and what I read here prevent me from doing so.
    (0)

  4. #24
    Player
    Kitru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,334
    Character
    Kitru Kitera
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Valendore View Post
    Good, I think it should be removed or pumped up like in WoW,
    At which point you have to ask what the entire point of the system is? If tanks get aggro without any effort at all (so simply by facerolling), why should healers or DPS have more than 1 button to push? The enmity subgame makes tanking at least somewhat challenging and makes it more interesting. Removing or "fixing" anything that's remotely challenging or interesting because some people can't handle it just makes it mind numbingly boring for those of us who can actually play the game.

    If you don't like the enmity subgame, don't tank because the enmity subgame is a fundamental part of tanking. Asking for the enmity subgame to be excised from tanking is no better than asking for the resource subgame to be completely removed so that everyone can spam everything forever and ever because some people have no idea how to maintain their TP/MP.
    (3)

  5. #25
    Player
    Elrin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    4
    Character
    Ty Rivin
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
    At which point you have to ask what the entire point of the system is?
    The point of the system is so that the game knows which target an enemy should be attacking. Managing that system isn't fun for a lot of people, though. That's why some MMOs, WoW being the primary example, have moved away from threat/aggro being a fundamental part of tanking and instead give tanks more control over their own survival.

    In WoW, tanks' focus is on generating resources to allow them to use their primary defensive abilities. For example, warriors use Shield Slam and Revenge to generate rage, and spend rage to activate their Shield Block or Shield Barrier abilities, which reduce the damage they take. This makes their survival more dependent on their own actions in combat (rather than the stats on their gear, or the actions of their teammates) and to generally play more like DPS does, which a lot of people find more fun.
    (1)

  6. #26
    Player Killabye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    la noscea
    Posts
    158
    Character
    Killabye Strife
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Armorer Lv 50
    If they act like pissants do my strategy. If I want them to die I just let them. If they're assholes I'll point at them while the boss kills them. If I'm really not having it I'll roll a joint and watch tv then come back and read their rants lol you get to smoke a joint and chill while they freak out and power punch keys on their keyboard and flip out lol
    (0)

  7. #27
    Player
    Valendore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    17
    Character
    Valenora Battleforge
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrin View Post
    The point of the system is so that the game knows which target an enemy should be attacking. Managing that system isn't fun for a lot of people, though. That's why some MMOs, WoW being the primary example, have moved away from threat/aggro being a fundamental part of tanking and instead give tanks more control over their own survival.

    In WoW, tanks' focus is on generating resources to allow them to use their primary defensive abilities. For example, warriors use Shield Slam and Revenge to generate rage, and spend rage to activate their Shield Block or Shield Barrier abilities, which reduce the damage they take. This makes their survival more dependent on their own actions in combat (rather than the stats on their gear, or the actions of their teammates) and to generally play more like DPS does, which a lot of people find more fun.
    This is what I was talking about. The point is this thread is how to get more people tanking. Kitru's idealism prevents more people from tanking. Threat management is one of the out of date concepts that needs to go.

    TERA had something similar. They have a resolve resource that allows them to block and hold the block for as long as resolve lasts. You use your other skills to build resolve. They have combos and skills that only activate after another skill is used. The combat in TERA cannot be beat. I really hope other games use it. Also, TERA tanks have a skill "challenging shout" that gets all mobs to attack you in a large circle in front of you and adds a good amount of threat to keep you on top.
    (1)

  8. #28
    Player
    Kitru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,334
    Character
    Kitru Kitera
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrin View Post
    The point of the system is so that the game knows which target an enemy should be attacking.
    Which could be done more easily by not having an enmity system at all. Just make it a straight up priority system instead of tracking a value based off of damage. The entire point of the enmity subgame is that you actually have to generate enmity else you'll lose aggro. If you don't want to have enmity generation as a concern, remove the system rather than nerfing the living hell out of it because a few people can't do it.

    The point of the enmity system is not to determine who NPCs are attacking. Because there are other systems that accomplish what the enmity system does in a simpler fashion, the *point* of the enmity system is to create a subgame to determine who NPCs are attacking. Since it's a subgame, it should actually be compelling to some sense, else there's no reason to include it. If you simplify it to such an extent that it's completely ignored, that's exactly what happens: it serves no purpose and simply becomes an artefactual system because it *used* to serve one.

    In WoW, tanks' focus is on generating resources to allow them to use their primary defensive abilities.
    Welcome to WAR. Just because PLD is boring as hell doesn't mean that all tanks have absolutely nothing going on but enmity generation.

    Also, if you want to talk about "generally play more like DPS", enmity generation *is* the same basic thing as doing DPS. The difference between current WoW tanks and old-school WoW tanks isn't that they now play more like DPS; the difference is that their mitigation has been shifted from passive to active mechanisms, which has absolutely nothing to do with the enmity subgame. WAR already demonstrates that you can have a compelling enmity subgame while simultaneously having active mitigation.

    You've got a GLA at 18 and a MRD at 26, and even have any 50s. You obviously haven't even tanked anything beyond the earliest starter dungeons where aggro generation can basically be summed up as "spam your AoE enmity generator and go afk" so I seriously have to wonder why you're even taking part in this discussion unless you simply want to debate the merits of enmity systems in the abstract, at which point the fact that you conflate enmity generation with active v. passive mitigation demonstrates that you really don't have the knowledge to partake in such a discussion.
    (1)

  9. #29
    Player
    SpookyGhost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    3,403
    Character
    Kori Fleming
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Valendore View Post
    TERA had something similar. They have a resolve resource that allows them to block and hold the block for as long as resolve lasts. You use your other skills to build resolve. They have combos and skills that only activate after another skill is used. The combat in TERA cannot be beat. I really hope other games use it. Also, TERA tanks have a skill "challenging shout" that gets all mobs to attack you in a large circle in front of you and adds a good amount of threat to keep you on top.
    Either they changed TERA a lot since I stopped playing, or you've never tanked in TERA end game. Yes, challenging shout is amazing and gives you a nice boost in aggro - however, if any melee DPS gets a triple crit? Especially on a boss you don't have much time in between blocks? You're done. That DPS is pulling it off you no problem. Even if you use your Infuriate, you're still going to get rammed again when those crit chains start exploding while you're blocking again.

    TERA tanking is actually way more complicated than in this - if someone can tank in TERA, they can tank in FF14. OP/Flash = Challenging Shout. The only difference is you don't just have to press it once and then again every time it's off cooldown. Tanking is honestly the easiest of all 3 roles, if you have to change tanking to make it even easier then you'll have to just remove AOEs completely and make every job have a 123 rotation. Because that's fun, right?
    (0)

  10. #30
    Player
    Kitru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,334
    Character
    Kitru Kitera
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Valendore View Post
    This is what I was talking about. The point is this thread is how to get more people tanking. Kitru's idealism prevents more people from tanking. Threat management is one of the out of date concepts that needs to go.
    The only reason that it's "outdated" is because some people suck at it for the same reason that so very many suck at DPS (they have no idea how to use their abilities effectively): generating enmity is *just like* dealing damage because dealing damage is how tanks generate enmity. The only reason that people act like it's a completely different is because the consequences are different: when a DPS sucks at dealing damage, no one notices unless there's a parser whereas, if a tank sucks at enmity generation, it's readily apparent because people other than the tank are being punched in the face.

    If you want to nerf an enmity system so much that it's not a factor in play at all, don't act like you're fixing an aspect of the game. You're removing that aspect completely simply because some people suck at it, not because it's actually improving the system and making the game more enjoyable.
    (2)

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