Is a Parser ever comming?

[Viridiana]

So, I've seen a number of complaints and fears throughout the thread, and I'd like to respond to some of them.

1) "People are already getting kicked from groups without parsers. Parsers would make this worse." My response to this is that most people who will kick someone for being a bad player are the types that will kick with or without a parser. Even when I see people doing crap dps, my first response is never to kick them. Heck, I've tanked a dungeon run with a DRG standing directly in front of the mob spamming TTT combo the whole time, and I never said anything to him until after the run because at least he knew boss mechanics and wasn't dying. You think people need a parser to see something like this and kick?

2) "Just use the aggro meters!" Doesn't work if one DD is constantly using threat dumps and the others aren't. Heck, MNK is the only DD this would be even remotely reliable for. Even then, you don't see any actual numbers, just bars and a rough ordering (assuming you can see the differences in bars).

3) "And third-party tools are a crutch for lazy players who want to easy mode the entire game. Parsers are not used to self-improvement. They're used to alienate others. And they do not take into account dodging, killing adds, DoTs, pets, etc. People with area effect skills can also pad their numbers by spamming. They promote laziness in players who would rather stand in one place and spam their rotations rather than dodging attacks (which would lower their DPS scores). They undermine the entire basis of the way this game is played."

Yeah, this whole post is getting a response; it's that bad. First, if everyone has access to parsers, players can only be as lazy as their teammates allow them to be. Remember, if everyone has a parser, everyone is accountable. Second, parsers are easily used for self-improvement by anyone who actually wishes to improve themselves. They do take into account dodging (Incoming Damage), killing adds (Damage done by combatant), DOTs (for the last several versions), pets (about as long as dots, if not longer), etc. About the only thing they don't make clear is people being hit by things like conflag/gaol and thus having less uptime (except there's also an uptime column). People spamming AOE is fine as long as things still die in time. Heck, a lot of time that's faster, anyway. People who don't dodge so that they can finish their casts are the same people who will be called out for constantly making the healer's lives harder. You can't say that they undermine the very basis of the game when pretty much the entire endgame consists of DPS checks. I mean, clearly you can because you just did, but it's silly to say the least.

4) "Parsers promote tunnel vision!" The same tunnel vision that will get a player killed, at which point the group leader will tell them to pay attention to something other than their parse. Problem solved, unless it repeats, and then you get to replace a player until they learn some discipline.

5) "It's only going to be used for harrassment!" This is seriously the kind of thinking that leads to our inability to send tells during dungeons. . .

6) "I'm sure you're incredibly "skilled," what with needing third party programs to help you play a game that tells you exactly where to go and what to do, but there's really no need for most players to bother with parsers or anything else."

Again, this is just bad. . .We don't *need* third party programs to tell us how to play. Heck, most of the analysis of rotations happened before we had working parsers and haven't changed significantly since then. What parsers allow us to do is work out some of the tedium of trying to manually run numbers on extremely large chunks of data, such as the attempts I've seen by some to work out an actual parry rate -> % conversion. That's not something SE is inclined to provide us, and manually running the numbers would take more hours than is feasible. It's also useful for things like working on rotations and such, because it allows you to just give the rotation a trial run instead of sitting there and mathing it out over the course of an hour or so (depending on detail and math skill).

7) "Have it only parse your own damage." That's cool, but then I never would have noticed that DRG who didn't use a single oGCD ability. Or that MNK who never used Snap Punch. I'd notice the BLM only casting Blizzard III either way, but that just means that without a parser casters would be held to a higher standard than melee. That's hardly fair.

8) "PF requirements are already horrible. It'll be worse with parsers!" People who set up horrible PF requirements are a distinct problem. Is there some overlap between the two? Certainly. Will we see a fresh batch of silly PF requirements if parsers get implemented? Most likely. Is that a reason not to allow a basic tool into the game? I don't think so, and neither does a fair section of the community. I'd actually rather see some of the more toxic elements be given a few more tools to be toxic with so we can just ban them and be done with it.

9) "Vote to kick every 5 minutes!" That's harrassment. See my last sentence above for my thoughts on the matter.

10) And lastly: "Could anyone tell even one "non-mean" way a parser will be used?" Aside from the above mentioned self-improvement? I've given examples already in this response of players I'd have calmly corrected (well, sarcastically corrected, but I'm always sarcastic) on their rotations had they stuck around a little longer. It's not just a matter of "Oh, you did the least damage this time around." It's usually either "Ha, you lost to the BRD (but we still won, so whatever)!" or "Hey, you're gonna need to step it up for us to clear this. Any reason you can think of that you're lowest DPS?" Granted, that last example is in a more civilized group. I'm fully aware there will be a number of "L2P /kick" groups, but those, again, should be getting banned for their actions so we can clean up the community. Overall, I'd say parsers have a very good potential to be used for benefit instead of detriment. It's up to us to hold the community accountable, though.

[indira]

if you get kicked for not doing that extra damage its harassment report the people that kicked you. even if its a legal parser they still cant treat you like crap.
we still dont know the rules on add ons yet.

[ispano]

if you get kicked for not doing that extra damage its harassment report the people that kicked you. even if its a legal parser they still cant treat you like crap.
we still dont know the rules on add ons yet.

If it's a DF run, yes. If it's a premade, then they can kick you for any reason. If they think you're underperforming, even without a parser, they can kick you.

[indira]

If it's a DF run, yes. If it's a premade, then they can kick you for any reason. If they think you're underperforming, even without a parser, they can kick you.

wheres it say that?

[ispano]

wheres it say that?

It's always been that way, the harassment "clause" if you will, has applied to vote kicking, which can only be done in DF runs. If it's a premade, they all leave and kick you, that's always been allowed. Because it's their group, not a random one where you had no choice in the matter.

Because otherwise, someone could join your group and proceed to cause wipes, should they not be able to remove them because they are hindering the group? As a leader of a group, you get to choose who gets to be in your party, and who gets removed if needed.

DF = duty finder, random. PF = party finder, premade your rules apply.

That's what I just said....

[indira]

It's always been that way, the harassment "clause" if you will, has applied to vote kicking, which can only be done in DF runs. If it's a premade, they all leave and kick you, that's always been allowed. Because it's their group, not a random one where you had no choice in the matter.

DF = duty finder, random. PF = party finder, premade your rules apply.

[Ikeda]

if you get kicked for not doing that extra damage its harassment report the people that kicked you. even if its a legal parser they still cant treat you like crap.
we still dont know the rules on add ons yet.

Wrong they said add ons are illegal a long time ago and it's in the ToS. Yoshi knows the "use" for parsers but he can't officially condone them because of the ToS. He essentially said if you're going to use a parser don't be stupid and announce it to anyone because they'll have to ban you if you're reported.

[indira]

Wrong they said add ons are illegal a long time ago and it's in the ToS. Yoshi knows the "use" for parsers but he can't officially condone them because of the ToS. He essentially said if you're going to use a parser don't be stupid and announce it to anyone because they'll have to ban you if you're reported.

im talking about if addons were to allow parsers, not the current one out now.

[ispano]

Wrong they said add ons are illegal a long time ago and it's in the ToS. Yoshi knows the "use" for parsers but he can't officially condone them because of the ToS. He essentially said if you're going to use a parser don't be stupid and announce it to anyone because they'll have to ban you if you're reported.

No, he means they're going to add an API for add ons. Like WoW has, this was said a loooooong time ago. As in, in game add ons, not third party apps that exist now.

[Ikeda]

No, he means they're going to add an API for add ons. Like WoW has, this was said a loooooong time ago. As in, in game add ons, not third party apps that exist now.

Well then in that case with the way SE tries to keep everyone "friendly" with the 30 minute lock outs for quitting and no tells in dungeons then they likely know the issues parsers can cause and if they're ever going to allow one it will most likely only work on yourself.