Tempering

[Enkidoh]

I think it's an interesting concept.

That a Primal can relinquish their claim on a tempered soul, effectively curing them of tempering. However, because a Primal needs to voluntarily give up a worshipper, which fuels their power, I can't see Ifrit, Garuda and the like doing so.

I don't know how it is with Elder Primals though...

Ironically, this is actually what version 1.0 seemed to be hinting at when you first encountered Ifrit during the Path of the Twelve main scenario quest 'Lord Errant' - in the cell in Zan'rak just prior to being taken to the Bowl of Embers, the player encounters two npcs, a lalafell girl in a robe and coif curled up in a foetal position (named 'Cloudy-Eyed Prisoner') and an elezen male in a doublet reclining back and named 'Emotionless Prisoner'. Talking to the two revealed they were already tempered (the elezen specifically mentions "being tempered in the flames" like he was), and when the player and their Path Companion are then taken to the Bowl of Embers, those two prisoners are included with them, and then apparently tempered again.

This seemed to suggest that tempering was an imperfect process that had to be continuously performed in order to keep tempered under a Primal's thrall, but all the information shown in ARR seemed to retcon this, with it mentioned time and time again that tempering was permanent and that a tempered was pretty much "better dead" than to be allowed to live. If the info revealed during the Second Coil is correct, this would actually ring true with the events with Ifrit during 'Lord Errant' in 1.0.

Considering how Odin is, they definitely seems to be summoned differently then the others.

Maybe they are like some permanent natural forces that just can't be erased.

All Primals are stated as being immortal beings that cannot be truly destroyed - they're literally just essences that float through the river of aether (I dislike using the FFVII-reference-term 'Lifestream', as it's a retcon - 1.0 only ever called it 'the river of aether through the planet'), and that the summoning process effectively creates a physical form for them to inhabit, powered by the aether in the crystals they consume as part of the summoning rite and the devotion given to them by their followers (read: tempered).

This explains why they were sealed in Silvertear Lake - the Allag knew they couldn't be truly destroyed and so the next best thing was simply to seal them away to prevent them from being summoned, Odin and Bahamut obviously being so powerful as to require their own individual sealing (Odin in Urth's Font and Bahamut within Dalamud).

[gornotck]

It may be that NPCs simply believe it to be permanent, though the suspiciously lion-like lizardmen beast tribe quests indicate that they believe it's possible to end tempering through chemical means, which sort of almost not really worked.
Then again, Ul'dah wouldn't be really interested in housing the Tempered in post-Calamity days, so why not kill them under the prescripts of it being permanent anyway.

[PArcher]

Then again, Ul'dah wouldn't be really interested in housing the Tempered in post-Calamity days, so why not kill them under the prescripts of it being permanent anyway.

I would go along with this more than anything. Ul'dah is having tons of problems with refugees and rebuilding; taking in tempered prisoners and waiting/hoping for the process to be reversed (I do wonder if its possible to reverse it 100%; perhaps it weakens to the point of the tempered to regain some free will, but they have that bit of their Primal still in them, and it can be "rekindled" easily or something) would probably do more harm than good.

Having the general population think tempering is non-reversible is likely as much a tool of control as anything; keeps merchants and the like from dealing with beastmen, adventurers too, and the general population fearful of the beastmen.


The issue, then, would be with the Scions. Where are they getting the info that tempering is permanent? If they're just taking what someone said (like, whoever convinced everyone else) and not checking...or did they look into it themselves? I'm more curious about that...

Also, what is the stance on tempering's permanence from the other two city-states? We really only get the view from Ul'dah (I think, I can't remember).

So are you suggesting all those tempered were executed needlessly?

Its possible, but we can't be 100% sure. It may be that certain people need to be "re-tempered" often (every few months or so), and some get tempered almost permanently (years between tempering). If tempered prisoners are trying to carry out the will of their primal while waiting for the tempering to wear off...it could be very hard to justify keeping them alive long enough for it to wear off.

[Magis]

The issue, then, would be with the Scions. Where are they getting the info that tempering is permanent? If they're just taking what someone said (like, whoever convinced everyone else) and not checking...or did they look into it themselves? I'm more curious about that...

Since the end-all goal of the Scions is to stop the primals, it could be seen as a necessary evil. Even having the tempered take weeks to untemper is a threat, since they are fueling their primal. For example the guy in Coerthas who was sacrificing rats. However Thancred seems very sincere when he told you that the people had to be executed. It could be a case of they just don't know? The cutscene where the person get's "untempered" in 1.0... do the other Scions see this?

[Magis]

Ironically, this is actually what version 1.0 seemed to be hinting at when you first encountered Ifrit during the Path of the Twelve main scenario quest 'Lord Errant' - in the cell in Zan'rak just prior to being taken to the Bowl of Embers, the player encounters two npcs, a lalafell girl in a robe and coif curled up in a foetal position (named 'Cloudy-Eyed Prisoner') and an elezen male in a doublet reclining back and named 'Emotionless Prisoner'. Talking to the two revealed they were already tempered (the elezen specifically mentions "being tempered in the flames" like he was), and when the player and their Path Companion are then taken to the Bowl of Embers, those two prisoners are included with them, and then apparently tempered again.

This seemed to suggest that tempering was an imperfect process that had to be continuously performed in order to keep tempered under a Primal's thrall, but all the information shown in ARR seemed to retcon this, with it mentioned time and time again that tempering was permanent and that a tempered was pretty much "better dead" than to be allowed to live. If the info revealed during the Second Coil is correct, this would actually ring true with the events with Ifrit during 'Lord Errant' in 1.0.

So are you suggesting all those tempered were executed needlessly?