Tempering

[Enkidoh]

Garuda seemed to prefer more to rely on brute strength rather than tempering though - she only resorted to it after the player beat her in combat, unlike Ifrit, who was more than happy to try tempering the player only moments after his summoning.

Considering Ifrit is fought at level 20 (and even his hard and extreme mode forms are considered tame), where as Garuda is fought at a much higher level, it's entirelly possible that Ifrit is simply overcompensating for his own innate weakness by tempering anyone and anything he can get his claws on, especially as a Primal's strength is connected, at least partially, to how many worshippers they have.

As for Titan, although it's not clear in ARR, in another thread I think it was either Moose or Noloe mentioned datamining had revealed dummied dialogue for the never-implemented Titan fight in 1.0, and apparently Titan actually indeed tempered some members of the Company of Heroes when they fought him, and simply killed those he didn't (this would explain why they're so hesitant about sending the player off to fight him directly in ARR - they saw just how dangerous he really was five years before.). In any event, it's obvious Titan too does in fact temper, but like Garuda seems to rely more on brute force than creating an army of zealous followers.

And then there's the wildcard - the dragonkin (the Dravanian Horde) and their currently unknown dragon Primal - Ishgard regards anyone suspected of having even minor contact with a Dravanian as a heretic, which on the surface simply appears to be typical religious dogma, however, visiting the cells at Whitebrim you can actually see suspected Dravanian supporters, and they clearly exhibit personality traits of tempered (lack of free will, zealous ramblings about how the dragons will destroy Ishgard etc), suggesting that the Dravanians too are tempering, and have in fact been doing it for years. But as to the identity of the Primal responsible is anyone's guess (it's clearly not Bahamut though, as he was contained within Dalamud for centuries after all).

[Urthdigger]

Kobolds are specifically mentioned by a few folks as being rats. Which does beg the question: Do they share any relation to qiqirn?

[Dotsusama]

Interesting point, but when you break through the checkpoints with Y'shtola, in English the text says "Damn them... they have made thralls of soldiers and civilians both." but in the Japanese dub you can hear her refer to them as "tempered".

[dragonflie]

Since the scene is rather related to the subjet:
T9 kill cutscene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YXN...ature=youtu.be

Nael got untempered after the fight it seems and retempered after getting speared.

[Razard]

Since the scene is rather related to the subjet:
T9 kill cutscene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YXN...ature=youtu.be

Nael got untempered after the fight it seems and retempered after getting speared.

I think it's an interesting concept.

That a Primal can relinquish their claim on a tempered soul, effectively curing them of tempering. However, because a Primal needs to voluntarily give up a worshipper, which fuels their power, I can't see Ifrit, Garuda and the like doing so.

I don't know how it is with Elder Primals though...

[dragonflie]

I don't know how it is with Elder Primals though...

Considering how Odin is, they definitely seems to be summoned differently then the others.

Maybe they are like some permanent natural forces that just can't be erased.

[Magis]

Considering how Odin is, they definitely seems to be summoned differently then the others.

Maybe they are like some permanent natural forces that just can't be erased.

Well, it makes sense why they were sealed until the Garleans accidentally freed them. If you can't kill them, might as well seal em forever.

[Enkidoh]

I think it's an interesting concept.

That a Primal can relinquish their claim on a tempered soul, effectively curing them of tempering. However, because a Primal needs to voluntarily give up a worshipper, which fuels their power, I can't see Ifrit, Garuda and the like doing so.

I don't know how it is with Elder Primals though...

Ironically, this is actually what version 1.0 seemed to be hinting at when you first encountered Ifrit during the Path of the Twelve main scenario quest 'Lord Errant' - in the cell in Zan'rak just prior to being taken to the Bowl of Embers, the player encounters two npcs, a lalafell girl in a robe and coif curled up in a foetal position (named 'Cloudy-Eyed Prisoner') and an elezen male in a doublet reclining back and named 'Emotionless Prisoner'. Talking to the two revealed they were already tempered (the elezen specifically mentions "being tempered in the flames" like he was), and when the player and their Path Companion are then taken to the Bowl of Embers, those two prisoners are included with them, and then apparently tempered again.

This seemed to suggest that tempering was an imperfect process that had to be continuously performed in order to keep tempered under a Primal's thrall, but all the information shown in ARR seemed to retcon this, with it mentioned time and time again that tempering was permanent and that a tempered was pretty much "better dead" than to be allowed to live. If the info revealed during the Second Coil is correct, this would actually ring true with the events with Ifrit during 'Lord Errant' in 1.0.

Considering how Odin is, they definitely seems to be summoned differently then the others.

Maybe they are like some permanent natural forces that just can't be erased.

All Primals are stated as being immortal beings that cannot be truly destroyed - they're literally just essences that float through the river of aether (I dislike using the FFVII-reference-term 'Lifestream', as it's a retcon - 1.0 only ever called it 'the river of aether through the planet'), and that the summoning process effectively creates a physical form for them to inhabit, powered by the aether in the crystals they consume as part of the summoning rite and the devotion given to them by their followers (read: tempered).

This explains why they were sealed in Silvertear Lake - the Allag knew they couldn't be truly destroyed and so the next best thing was simply to seal them away to prevent them from being summoned, Odin and Bahamut obviously being so powerful as to require their own individual sealing (Odin in Urth's Font and Bahamut within Dalamud).

[gornotck]

It may be that NPCs simply believe it to be permanent, though the suspiciously lion-like lizardmen beast tribe quests indicate that they believe it's possible to end tempering through chemical means, which sort of almost not really worked.
Then again, Ul'dah wouldn't be really interested in housing the Tempered in post-Calamity days, so why not kill them under the prescripts of it being permanent anyway.

[Magis]

Ironically, this is actually what version 1.0 seemed to be hinting at when you first encountered Ifrit during the Path of the Twelve main scenario quest 'Lord Errant' - in the cell in Zan'rak just prior to being taken to the Bowl of Embers, the player encounters two npcs, a lalafell girl in a robe and coif curled up in a foetal position (named 'Cloudy-Eyed Prisoner') and an elezen male in a doublet reclining back and named 'Emotionless Prisoner'. Talking to the two revealed they were already tempered (the elezen specifically mentions "being tempered in the flames" like he was), and when the player and their Path Companion are then taken to the Bowl of Embers, those two prisoners are included with them, and then apparently tempered again.

This seemed to suggest that tempering was an imperfect process that had to be continuously performed in order to keep tempered under a Primal's thrall, but all the information shown in ARR seemed to retcon this, with it mentioned time and time again that tempering was permanent and that a tempered was pretty much "better dead" than to be allowed to live. If the info revealed during the Second Coil is correct, this would actually ring true with the events with Ifrit during 'Lord Errant' in 1.0.

So are you suggesting all those tempered were executed needlessly?