Elementalist => Red Mage/Geomancer Job idea

[Shurrikhan]

Neat concepts, even if not my first choice for the class-stem or style of Geomancer. Just on basic concepts and mere preferences alone, I'd rather the base class be an actual fencer, with abilities that hint at elemental affinities, while the elemental wheel is introduced in RDM and debuffs are made in combination between one's current step in the wheel and the abilities used. That said, such would likely leave a lot to fine-print tooltips (ability does A in Z, B in Y, C in X, nothing extra in other three elements; this ability gains buff A in Z, B in Y, C in X)...

In terms of actual critique:

- The Tactical Wheel buffs seem unable to be procced predictably in time for any particular event and the parry buff seems almost useless compared to the magic damage increase (which seems to make up the slight majority of RDM and definite majority of Geomancer). The Wheel also feels like it could be a more useful and interesting concept in itself (even if it is in some ways limiting or hindering; or more noticeably throttles and bottlenecks the class) that could add more dynamics to the Elementalist by carrying a native buff inside of each element instead.
- The minor percentages of abilities like Main Gauche also feel too weak.
- Point-in-line seems quite weak as a native ability. As a non-strength class, you're unlikely to be parrying for even 18% or so of the attack strength. Gaining 10% of that chance does not warrant a 10% loss in dps, even with the damage of Riposte (which, due to the long DoT, does not currently benefit quick successive counters, by the way). I would rework this into either a mechanic or a sort of free, dynamic buff that can only be used on one enemy at a time and would have reason to be deployed at certain times (not using it early nor late)--something that fits the theme and won't go unused but is not necessitated either.

The completion of cycles and the cycles system itself could use clarification and exemplification.
- Is the elemental order necessary? Does the position in the Arcane cycle belong to the player or only enemies ("uses one Arcane Cycle from a target")? Does it change when the player casts a spell, or only according to enemy attunement (which would delay its effects by 18 seconds since the attunement debuff only applies after the DoT has finished)? If there's a specific order to your abilities, why have the full range of abilities at your disposal at all times? (You would just be casting Burn, Drown, Shock, Rasp, Choke, Frost...) Even if the order was unimportant, at 18 seconds duration it would take 7 GCDs to be able to effectively recast any of these DoTs, basically forcing you to use all 6. It seems like it would take a minimum of 15 seconds to build a single Arcane Cycle stack on an enemy, though that may be about right, maybe not--I don't know without a better understanding of how this class would fight.

The Red Mage abilities seem rather lackluster except for Double-cast, which is not well explained, and Enchant, which seems a bit too powerful at present. Enchantment, especially, needs a cooldown listed.

Geomancer seems like it ought to be able to more support with its terrain than it does, even if not by much (i.e. applying the debuffs in lesser version to any enemies in the area, or any enemies who attack any allies in that area).

[Mimilu]

Snip

Thank you for the critique.

Do address your points:
- Tactical Wheel: I had originally though about giving each element a Tactical Wheel buff but was worried that it might be unfair to give them one trait that could possibly gives them one of six different buffs but you are right that it would probably make it more interesting/useful. As for the parrying buff, I made that with GEO in mind. I designed GEO to focus more on parrying as there main defense, to go more with the fencing theme the classes have and their DEX-based physical moves. What if I boost the chance of the Tactical Wheel buff happening to 50% and the Terrain chance to 75%? I'll also add buffs for the individual elements too.
- Percents: When I did all the percents, I was worried that if I made them happen too often the class/jobs would be broken. I'll go boost some of them... >w>()
- Point-In-Line: What if Point-In-Line was an instant cast-ability that automatically parried the enemy's attack? You have to use it at the right time for it to work and get the Double-Touch trait buff.

Arcane Cycle
- Casting the spells in the correct order is necessary BUT you can start anywhere on the cycle you want, I just started it with Fire because it's the first spell you get.
- The Arcane Cycle stack is placed on the enemy. For abilities that use Arcane Cycles, you have to have a foe with stacks selected to use them.
- The Arcane Cycle is based on the Attunement debuff and using the opposite elemental spell to it. Example: You use Burn and wait for the DoT to end and the Fire-Attunement debuff to pop up, you need to use Drown, then Shock when the Water-Attunement debuff is up, and so on until you finish of with casting Burn on an Ice-Attuned foe.
-You don't have to cast the spells on the same enemy. You just need to cast it on an enemy that has the correct attunement debuff on them. This is where RDM's Elemental Burst and Doublecast comes in. I'll remove the Arcane Cycle cost on Elemental Burst to make it easier.
- As for the 18 seconds, the last trait ELM gets at 48, Cycle Through, reduces DoT's time to 9. I had designed the DoTs to force players to use magic and melee combat to maximize damage versus specializing in one or the other like the other DPSs.
-You can have multiple Arcane Cycle stacks on multiple foes.

Red Mage
-Red Mage was designed to be a single-target-supporting DPS versus Bard, which is a group-supporting DPS (at least in my eyes it is. :B ).
- I had designed their abilities to be a bit lackluster just for that reason, Enchant and Doublecast. I also did it to give them things that Bard, the only other support job, didn't have, like a debuff-remover (to help healers) and something to give spike damage to tanks.
- Doublecast was designed to help spread Enchantments and Elemental Spell DoTs. It allows you to cast two of the same spell on up to two targets. With Enchant up, the two spells become Enchantments.
- Elemental Burst is RDM's equivalent to ACN/SMN/SCH's Bane but instead of using it after placing a DoT on an enemy, you us it before to make it an AoE.
- I'll also be boosting Spike's damage output. >w>

Geomancer
- I like both of your ideas. I think I will change them a little to "applying the debuff to enemies in the area, when the Geomancer casts the Terrain spell" and changing the Terrains to effect your allies as well, so long as the Geomancer who cast it is in the AoE.

[Shurrikhan]

- Point-In-Line: What if Point-In-Line was an instant cast-ability that automatically parried the enemy's attack? You have to use it at the right time for it to work and get the Double-Touch trait buff.

One thing you could do is simply have it take effect (at no cost) only when you are perfectly in front of the enemy and have that enemy targeted. This would be automatic if you had threat, but you could potentially play with the mechanic by allowing the ELM to parry attacks not aimed at you. ELM would thereby become more supportive, moving into tank position for AAs and dodging back out before cleaves. Just a thought.

Arcane Cycle
- Casting the spells in the correct order is necessary BUT you can start anywhere on the cycle you want, I just started it with Fire because it's the first spell you get.
- The Arcane Cycle stack is placed on the enemy. For abilities that use Arcane Cycles, you have to have a foe with stacks selected to use them.
- The Arcane Cycle is based on the Attunement debuff and using the opposite elemental spell to it. Example: You use Burn and wait for the DoT to end and the Fire-Attunement debuff to pop up, you need to use Drown, then Shock when the Water-Attunement debuff is up, and so on until you finish of with casting Burn on an Ice-Attuned foe.
-You don't have to cast the spells on the same enemy. You just need to cast it on an enemy that has the correct attunement debuff on them. This is where RDM's Elemental Burst and Doublecast comes in. I'll remove the Arcane Cycle cost on Elemental Burst to make it easier.
- As for the 18 seconds, the last trait ELM gets at 48, Cycle Through, reduces DoT's time to 9. I had designed the DoTs to force players to use magic and melee combat to maximize damage versus specializing in one or the other like the other DPSs.
-You can have multiple Arcane Cycle stacks on multiple foes.

So does each reversal (fire-->water or ice-->fire, etc.) constitute a stack, or each full rotation of elements? In either case, if the Arcane Cycle is basically foe-only, there really is no free-floating concept to it to speak of (not to say that you implied there was; it just tends to seem a level less significant to the class when the concept is simply a result of action). Instead, each attunement debuff simply grants a stack of charge, <Arcane Cycle>, whenever an opposite element is used, and certain abilities then consume that stack.

Basically, it makes me wish there was a native version of the Cycles as well, such as an attunement buff on the ELM itself, that required strategy to sync up with certain future wants for the elemental uses. This complexity would also be aided by having more than just Burst and Doublecast to spread about mobs, syncing up their debuff elements differently.

In a lot of dungeons, mobs don't last 18 seconds. You may want to drop the original time down to 9, or have the attunement effect take place after a certain minimum amount of damage has occured, where DoT crits could accelerate the readying of the debuff, and it on average goes off about 9 seconds with no crits and faster with them. "Cycle Through" could probably use a better name as long as the speed of elemental wheel rotations is its only major element effected.

Red Mage
-Red Mage was designed to be a single-target-supporting DPS versus Bard, which is a group-supporting DPS (at least in my eyes it is. :B ).
- I had designed their abilities to be a bit lackluster just for that reason, Enchant and Doublecast. I also did it to give them things that Bard, the only other support job, didn't have, like a debuff-remover (to help healers) and something to give spike damage to tanks.
- Doublecast was designed to help spread Enchantments and Elemental Spell DoTs. It allows you to cast two of the same spell on up to two targets. With Enchant up, the two spells become Enchantments.
- Elemental Burst is RDM's equivalent to ACN/SMN/SCH's Bane but instead of using it after placing a DoT on an enemy, you use it before to make it an AoE.
- I'll also be boosting Spike's damage output. >w>

Even as a support, RDM doesn't have to have lackluster abilities. Try to imagine scenarios that really stick out to you and make you want to play the job. Who all does it pair with, when and why, and how does it affect the linked party members' rotations? If it doesn't affect their gameplay at all (not that I recommend that a paired class should have to outright renegotiate its rotations to better benefit from RDM), such as a general dps increase or a minor benefit that doesn't allow for any extra action or opportunity (e.g. a skill speed increase that doesn't allow for an extra ability per shorter rotation), it will be that much less interesting.

_________________________________________

To be honest, I still think ELM doesn't really have a place as a class, especially as *the* rapier class. I'd much rather see Fencer used with the Fencer weapons, and for its elemental abilities to seem only either coincidental or stylistically-matching to an otherwise physical repertoire. I think that also brings more of the unique spellblade style of RDM than if starting from a caster class that happens to carry a sword and uses a couple sword finishers. I'd recommend reading MartaDemireux's take on the RDM. It's not exactly what I'm recommending by any means, but it will give a better example than I can illustrate in writing here.

[Mimilu]

Snip

Thank you again from the critique, I like input.

To address your points:

Point-In-Line: Here is the current version I have created: "Point-in-Line: An instant cast ability that automatically parries and counters a targeted foe's attack for 75% of the damage. Timing must be correct in order to use." And to go with it, "Double-Touch (Trait): Whenever Point-in-Line is successfully used, the user will receive a "Double-Touch" buff for 15 seconds. Double-Touch boost the damage done by melee attacks/skills by 25% ".

Arcane Cycle:
- Each rotation of the elements gives a stack, like: 1st spell > 2nd spell (1st Element's weakness)> 3rd spell (2nd's weakness)> 4th spell (3rd's weakness) > 5th spell (4th's weakness) > 6th spell (5th's weakness) > 1st spell (6th's weakness).

- As for why the stack goes onto the enemy, I want them to feel like an enfeeble/debuff, they would stack on your enemy and you would use it against them. I had also designed it to be more in use during longer battles like bosses and trials, with fencing being more for quick damage and dealing with trash mobs. However, I can see your point about it not being very "free-floating" and have to concur. I have been playing with some ideas about splitting the cycle two shorter cycles that would add the stacks to you or foe depending on which stack is used (Fire > Thunder > Wind > Fire and Water > Ice > Earth >Water) and an abilities that would let your place or grab tallies from one or the other. That way, you can use stacks that are on you for somethings and stacks of foes for other things.

- As for the DoT time, what if I make them 9 seconds long and change Cycle Through to something like "For every successful opposing spell cast on an Attunement debuff, 1 second will be taken off of the Elemental Spells DoT. DoT times can only go down to x seconds."?

Red Mage:
- I really didn't want to give them a specific scenario to stick out in, I wanted them to have fluidity via their utility, with Enchant being their main tool to augment the party's strength. I mean other then WHM/SCH (complement each other), WHM/BRD (Manasong), and DRG/BRD (Impulse Drive + Disembowel to boost BRD's damage), I don't know of any other pairings.
- Having said all that, I can see how lame Spike, Aetheric Cleanse, and Elemental Burst can look. I might remove Aetheric Cleanse for something more interesting.

Fencer vs Elementalist
I have read Matra's Fencer => Red Mage/Mystic Knight Proposal. Matra's proposals are were what got me interested in making class ideas (I have a second class/job idea thread floating around somewhere). >w>()
For me, I don't like the idea of a Fencer just stumbling into magic, it just seems random. I also felt that Red Mage using the spells from other classes (Conjurer and Thaumaturge) and having none of their own didn't fit with XIV, who gave each magic job the bulk of spells via their class.
The reason I picked Elementalist as the class is because, just like Fencer, it came from the Tactic Advanced series and uses a rapier (you even need a Fencer's skill to unlock both Red Mage and Elementalist) but also uses debuffing, elemental spells. I just fused the two together and left Elementalist's name because it seemed more descriptive of the class.
As for the elemental blade idea, I would rather save that for an actual Spell Blade/Mystic Knight/Rune Knight/etc job (maybe for a two-handed sword or another special sword). More jobs, more things to do. ;D

[Shurrikhan]

Point-In-Line: Here is the current version I have created: "Point-in-Line: An instant cast ability that automatically parries and counters a targeted foe's attack for 75% of the damage. Timing must be correct in order to use." And to go with it, "Double-Touch (Trait): Whenever Point-in-Line is successfully used, the user will receive a "Double-Touch" buff for 15 seconds. Double-Touch boost the damage done by melee attacks/skills by 25% ".

...Now it's too strong. Just consider this for instance: the lowest average potency of any melee's attacks (not buffs or debuffs) is 198 over 3 abilities (Monk's BS-True-Snap), or in a single ability: 150 for DRG (presents chain) and 180 for Monk, while Haymaker deals only 170 potency. In general, they're just not very good. Haymaker coming from a MNK has the advantage of having no positional, but that's it. Here you'd be gaining a combined Heavy Thrust and Twin Snakes for a single Off-GCD mitigation ability.

Arcane Cycle:
- Each rotation of the elements gives a stack, like: 1st spell > 2nd spell (1st Element's weakness)> 3rd spell (2nd's weakness)> 4th spell (3rd's weakness) > 5th spell (4th's weakness) > 6th spell (5th's weakness) > 1st spell (6th's weakness).

- As for why the stack goes onto the enemy, I want them to feel like an enfeeble/debuff, they would stack on your enemy and you would use it against them. I had also designed it to be more in use during longer battles like bosses and trials, with fencing being more for quick damage and dealing with trash mobs. However, I can see your point about it not being very "free-floating" and have to concur. I have been playing with some ideas about splitting the cycle two shorter cycles that would add the stacks to you or foe depending on which stack is used (Fire > Thunder > Wind > Fire and Water > Ice > Earth >Water) and an abilities that would let your place or grab tallies from one or the other. That way, you can use stacks that are on you for somethings and stacks of foes for other things.

As for the DoT time, what if I make them 9 seconds long and change Cycle Through to something like "For every successful opposing spell cast on an Attunement debuff, 1 second will be taken off of the Elemental Spells DoT. DoT times can only go down to x seconds."?

Given that they go off on a global 3-second tick, this would have the disadvantage of losing over-time damage. Why not just have a half chance to consume a tick (3 seconds), dealing that damage instantly?

I don't know of any other pairings.

Dragoon--> Piercing attacks (DRGs and BRDs), Warrior-->Slashing attacks (WARs and PLDs), Bards-->Magic attacks (via Foe; SMN, BLM, WHM, SCH), Monks-->Blunt attacks (Monks). Every job is supported, among which only Monk is self-supported, and only Bard cannot significantly support itself with the ability which supports others.

Fencer vs Elementalist
For me, I don't like the idea of a Fencer just stumbling into magic, it just seems random. I also felt that Red Mage using the spells from other classes (Conjurer and Thaumaturge) and having none of their own didn't fit with XIV, who gave each magic job the bulk of spells via their class.
The reason I picked Elementalist as the class is because, just like Fencer, it came from the Tactic Advanced series and uses a rapier (you even need a Fencer's skill to unlock both Red Mage and Elementalist) but also uses debuffing, elemental spells. I just fused the two together and left Elementalist's name because it seemed more descriptive of the class.
As for the elemental blade idea, I would rather save that for an actual Spell Blade/Mystic Knight/Rune Knight/etc job (maybe for a two-handed sword or another special sword). More jobs, more things to do. ;D

It's for the same reason that you wouldn't want to preclude the those jobs that I wouldn't want to see the rapier fit to a non-Fencer class. Aesthetically, GLD already has access to virtually every type of sword except for oriental-style and fencing weapons. I'd rather avoid further overlap, especially with the likely eventual arrival of ninjas and samurai, and find Fencer to be the fundamental rapier/fencing-weapon class.

That said, I'd always imagined Red Mage, in FFXIV's more minimalistic system, as having basically only one or two cast abilities (usually one GCD for true casts and an oGCD for 'releases') that nonetheless could function as almost any cast spell within RDM's library as would be reasonably transferable to its range of powers in FFXIV (given the relatively restrictive sharing of key moves like cleanses, etc., in this game). Your moves would influence the elements stored in your blade, for example, the result (whether normally called Fire or Thunder or Stone or Blast or Burn or whatever else) then being released by a single button. That's probably why, as much as I've never really thought little of RDM's magic abilities, or their frequency of casting, it's always seemed closest to a Fencer to me, at least among any incarnations possible in FFXIV.

[Mimilu]

Snip

To address your points:

Point-In-Line
Here is my current revision of Point-In-Line: Uses 1 Incorporeal Arcane Cycle tally from a selected foe and 1 Corporeal Arcane Cycle tally from the caster. An instant cast ability that automatically parries and counters the targeted foe's attack for 25% of the damage. Timing must be correct in order to use.
I also reduced the Double-Touch buff's physical damage increase to 10%.

Dot Time and Cycle Through
I made Cycle Through's effect only be able to lower to 4 seconds. I do have to agree that that does ruin the damage over time though, I'll have to revise it...
I'm not sure what you mean by "consume a tick, dealing damage instantly". Do you mean like giving a chance to add what the DoT's damage would have been to the initial spell and places the attune debuff automatically?

Red Mage and Pairing
I had designed the Enchant Buffs to do that. Courage to help with Melee DPS and Tanks damage output, Calm to help with Healers healing, Enlightened to help Mages with their damage output, Steadfast to help damage mitigation (both physical and magical) on Tanks, Energize helps anyone speed up actions, and Refresh to help Mages with MP regain. I gave them broad support versus specific support.