DIP, DUCK, DIVE, DODGE!

[Dyne]

So instead of a system where you can design encounters and play styles around a really limitless ability system like in traditional MMO's which are apparently dead, "next generation" MMO's allow you to dodge out of the way of abilities.

Okay, so I can do that right now in FFXIV with several mob's abilities as is and I wouldn't say it is the highlight of XIV's admittedly lackluster combat system nor is spamming my basic attack and as a pugilist I even have probably the most interesting set of basic attacks. I just don't think more of that type of gameplay is the answer. I know unreleased MMO's are "totally awesome and revolutionary", but I think the reality of those systems is that once the novelty of that "action" wears off it doesn't really do much to enhance gameplay.

Now personally what I would rather see were better and more varied abilities, and better encounter designs which require different approaches with a variety of tools and interactions between people in the group. That is what truly defines good combat in an MMO, not how "flashy" it is, "flashiness" is generally nothing but a distraction from something's lack of substance.

Yes you can "dodge" right now, but do you notice it or you just see it in the chat log every once in awhile? You can also run away, when the mob is about to body slam on you or about to shoot you with lightning, but what if you can do it in a more elegant, better looking, faster way?

You can mention all those other games with jump and dodge all you want and how they failed, but you need to understand that those games only have the action rpg elements to it and not the "final fantasy touch". You swing a sword and thats it. You cast a spell and thats it. You use an ability and thats it. Nothing happens before, after, or in between. FFXI had the skillchain and magic bursts. FFXIV has the battle regimen system. I am just asking to combine everything + action rpg elements. It is not that complicated. It is not Traditional vs Action RPG. I am asking why it can't be both and then some.

Before you go over your head, allow me to show exactly what I want: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSEbR...eature=related
That is Fantasy Earth Zero, a square enix made mmorpg that was short lived, made around 2005-2006, a 50 vs 50 pvp with very little pve elements. The controls are exactly how it is in FFXIV, Except you can jump and dodge. It's got the action bar, just like ffxiv, but in the top right with only 10 actions. It uses both the keyboard+mouse and the controller. I do not see how they can't implement this concept here. It's not a super fancy dodge, just a simple hop to the left or right, and it doesn't guarantee that you are unscathed after dodging.

[Murugan]

Yes you can "dodge" right now, but do you notice it or you just see it in the chat log every once in awhile? You can also run away, when the mob is about to body slam on you or about to shoot you with lightning, but what if you can do it in a more elegant, better looking, faster way?

You can mention all those other games with jump and dodge all you want and how they failed, but you need to understand that those games only have the action rpg elements to it and not the "final fantasy touch". You swing a sword and thats it. You cast a spell and thats it. You use an ability and thats it. Nothing happens before, after, or in between. FFXI had the skillchain and magic bursts. FFXIV has the battle regimen system. I am just asking to combine everything + action rpg elements. It is not that complicated. It is not Traditional vs Action RPG. I am asking why it can't be both and then some.

Before you go over your head, allow me to show exactly what I want: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSEbR...eature=related
That is Fantasy Earth Zero, a square enix made mmorpg that was short lived, made around 2005-2006, a 50 vs 50 pvp with very little pve elements. The controls are exactly how it is in FFXIV, Except you can jump and dodge. It's got the action bar, just like ffxiv, but in the top right with only 10 actions. It uses both the keyboard+mouse and the controller. I do not see how they can't implement this concept here. It's not a super fancy dodge, just a simple hop to the left or right, and it doesn't guarantee that you are unscathed after dodging.

Actually I was referring to the fact that you can "manually" dodge out of the way of attacks. Mostly frontal attacks once the mob begins their animation, such as with puks and many other mobs. Not evade as in the skill. However the more the game focuses on that kind of gameplay in my opinion the simpler and less strategic combat becomes and combat especially at the high end becomes repetitive and shallow.

I played FFXI at launch and I still remember the people in that game doing the whole "manual" dodge dance around mobs. It was a funny sight, but yeah I don't want to be doing that dance on high end encounters all the time because just like in XI frankly it is stupid. You can find videos of Tera with people do this exact same "manual" dodge dance people who didn't know any better in XI were doing, because that is what you get with "action" combat. I'd rather have it built into the mechanics like in traditional MMO's so that I can actually focus on and do more during combat. I prefer the complexity "traditional" MMO mechanics can offer over the "flashiness" of simply rolling in the dirt every 5 seconds, and I think they should build on that rather than actually regressing back to hack and slash mechanics.

[Defmetal]

We had this in DDO and Age of Conan.
It doesn't work very well because of latency issues, and it hurts communication without voice chat because your character becomes idle when you begin talking.

[Dyne]

We had this in DDO and Age of Conan.
It doesn't work very well because of latency issues, and it hurts communication without voice chat because your character becomes idle when you begin talking.

It really is not a problem, even without voice chat. The auto attack ensures that you aren't really idle. Back in ffxi, when we are fighting Gods that required extensive kiting, we didn't use voice chat, yet our leaders still barked orders while kiting, healing, or attacking. Everyone revealed their tp and if their abilities are ready to go, and managed to set off skillchains and magic bursts(maybe you have no idea what those are if you didn't play ffxi) just fine.

Skillchains happens when you fire up the right weapon skill combination 2-3 seconds after the first guy uses his and it produces and explosive elemental effect that causes extra damage to the mob. Magic bursts are much stronger and less resisted magic damage that you can inflict on the mob when the skillchain effect goes off, you have to time it just right so your spell goes off before that big elemental ball disappears. This was the greatest joy to ffxi that is missing in ffxiv and not present at all in any of the action rpgs.

Now, combine skillchain + magic bursts + solo combos + auto attack + action rpg elements (jumping, dodging, backflipping, etc...) and we will have a game worthy of being online for 10 years.

[Evangela]

Look at FF12 and FF13 and see how much Final Fantasy changed

they need to do it that way or die like the dinosaur

if you ppl don't like it, fine, just play FF1 - FF11 over and over

[Dyne]

I'm not saying to make the game like Tera. I'm saying a game that can easily rival Tera, and offer that little extra oomph to come out on top and have that Final Fantasy touch to it. I loved FFXI, but keeping it exactly like FFXI will kill FFXIV. It's even worse than FFXI now, it's easy mode, pick your difficulty, zerg fest, don't socialize, with lackluster abilities and spells. Look at FFXI's tornado vs. FFXIV's tornado, it looks like a green fart mist vs a giant green top. At this point, FFXIV copying FFXI cannot even compete against FFXI, what makes you think it can compete with Tera, PSO2, SWTOR, just to name a few?

[Dyne]

Let me make another scenario. You are a bystander. A tire just fell off a fast moving truck and it is now flying towards you at 80 mph, you only have less than second to make a decision, what do you do?
A) Stand there and take it because you think it will only cost you 1000 hit points (Strategic turnbased RPG style)
B) Block it with your hands because you think it will only cost you 500 hit points (Strategic turnbased RPG style)
C) Move out of the way by either sidestepping or jumping to the side (Action RPG style)
D) Do the matrix move

If you answered D, I will stab you in the jaw.

[Petori]

Let me make another scenario. You are a bystander. A tire just fell off a fast moving truck and it is now flying towards you at 80 mph, you only have less than second to make a decision, what do you do?
A) Stand there and take it because you think it will only cost you 1000 hit points (Strategic turnbased RPG style)
B) Block it with your hands because you think it will only cost you 500 hit points (Strategic turnbased RPG style)
C) Move out of the way by either sidestepping or jumping to the side (Action RPG style)
D) Do the matrix move

If you answered D, I will stab you in the jaw.

Disconnect (FFXIV style)

[Dyne]

Disconnect (FFXIV style)

Wrong answer, you just got decapitated by the tire because you cannot disconnect in real life, unless it involves suicide. So you're dead either way.

[Vanguard319]

Let me make another scenario. You are a bystander. A tire just fell off a fast moving truck and it is now flying towards you at 80 mph, you only have less than second to make a decision, what do you do?
A) Stand there and take it because you think it will only cost you 1000 hit points (Strategic turnbased RPG style)
B) Block it with your hands because you think it will only cost you 500 hit points (Strategic turnbased RPG style)
C) Move out of the way by either sidestepping or jumping to the side (Action RPG style)
D) Do the matrix move

If you answered D, I will stab you in the jaw.

I pick E, quickly perform a snap lane change, dodging the tire with inches to spare, and continue my commute.