Parry...

[ZDamned]

When I say DPS gear, I meant to say DPS Fending gear, and it is in Shield Oath that I gain 30 DPS going from Parry to Crit/Det. Sword Oath, I tend to hit the 185 DPS mark in the Drit/Det set.

My groups Warrior does keep Storms Eye up.

Ok everyone! Results are in! Here are my Parse logs from tonight's T7 Clear, and my first T7 Clear on Sunday.

Damage taken on Turn 7 169,119 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage taken on Turn 7 173,978 in Crit/Det Gear. (449 Parry, ilvl 93)

Damage Dealt on Turn 7 64,879 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage Dealt on Turn 7 73,719 in Crit/Det gear. (449 Parry, ilvl 93)

-EDIT- Fixt the Parry Numbers I mis read it initially, and had reported 479 in Crit/Det gear. SORRY! =P

I will GLADLY take 4859 damage to gain a level 1 limit break every 6 minutes.

[Casper]

When I say DPS gear, I meant to say DPS Fending gear, and it is in Shield Oath that I gain 30 DPS going from Parry to Crit/Det. Sword Oath, I tend to hit the 185 DPS mark in the Drit/Det set.

My groups Warrior does keep Storms Eye up.

Ok everyone! Results are in! Here are my Parse logs from tonight's T7 Clear, and my first T7 Clear on Sunday.

Damage taken on Turn 7 169,119 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage taken on Turn 7 173,978 in Crit/Det Gear. (479 Parry, ilvl 93)

Damage Dealt on Turn 7 64,879 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage Dealt on Turn 7 73,719 in Crit/Det gear. (479 Parry, ilvl 93)

I will GLADLY take 4859 damage to gain a level 1 limit break every 6 minutes.

Am i corrent in assuming that this is with dps fending gear too ? Which means there was also a 1k max hp difference ? Or was it just by optimizing parry or not optimizing it ?

[ZDamned]

Am i corrent in assuming that this is with dps fending gear too ? Which means there was also a 1k max hp difference ? Or was it just by optimizing parry or not optimizing it ?

This was Optimized Parry vs Optimized Crit/Determination, but all the gear is Paladin/Warrior Fending/Noct. Every piece has Vitality on it.

Both of my runs I showed data for made no sacrifices for Strength in any way. Vitality is my primary stat while raiding.

If you want a gear piece list, I will provide it later on, but the only important numbers are my Parry Rating in each set.

[Casper]

This was Optimized Parry vs Optimized Crit/Determination, but all the gear is Paladin/Warrior Fending/Noct. Every piece has Vitality on it.

Both of my runs I showed data for made no sacrifices for Strength in any way. Vitality is my primary stat while raiding.

If you want a gear piece list, I will provide it later on, but the only important numbers are my Parry Rating in each set.

So a 85 increased in summed up crit and det made you win 15% dps (since you lost 85 parry i assume you won that in other secondaries) ? I'm sorry, i don't want to be rude or insulting, but i have a hard time seeing how this could be. Would be interested in the gear list indeed. As said, not insulting or anything, just very curious because i can't seem to find where the dps difference could come from. Everything indicate that you need at the very least 30 secondary stats to increase dps by 1% (and probably closer to 45 most of the time).

[ZDamned]

Gear list for my Results:

Crit/Determination Set: W/ HQ Buttons in a Blanket
Wave ShamShir
Wave Shield
High Allagan Circlet of Fending
Valor Surcoat
Heavy Allagan Gauntlets
Heroes Belt of Fending
Heavy Allagan Cuisses
Weathered Noct Greaves
Heroes Necklace of Fending
Tremor Earrings of Fending
Weathered Noct Wristlets
Heroes Ring of Fending
Vortex Ring of Fending

Stats: ilvl 93 W/ HQ Buttons in a Blanket
Strength - 371
Accuracy - 491
Critical Hit Rate - 401
Determination - 281
Parry - 449 (I'm editing my last post, I must have misread the number last night, I had way less parry than before. =P)
Defense - 762
Skill Speed - 406
Attack Power - 371 (I guess this just mirrors strength?)

Parry Set: W/ La Noscean Toast
Allagan Blade
Weathered Noct Hoplon
High Allagan Circlet of Fending
Valor Surcoat
Valor Gauntlets
Allagan Plate Belt
Valor Cuisses
Weathered Noct Greaves
Allagan Choker of Fending
Allagan Earrings of Fending
Weathered Noct Wristlets
Heroes Ring of Fending
Allagan Ring of Fending

Stats: ilvl 94 W/ HQ La Noscean Toast
Strength - 372
Accuracy - 512
Critical Hit Rate - 356
Determination - 235
Parry - 564
Defense - 762
Skill Speed - 382
Attack Power - 372

[MythToken]

When I say DPS gear, I meant to say DPS Fending gear, and it is in Shield Oath that I gain 30 DPS going from Parry to Crit/Det. Sword Oath, I tend to hit the 185 DPS mark in the Drit/Det set.

My groups Warrior does keep Storms Eye up.

Ok everyone! Results are in! Here are my Parse logs from tonight's T7 Clear, and my first T7 Clear on Sunday.

Damage taken on Turn 7 169,119 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage taken on Turn 7 173,978 in Crit/Det Gear. (449 Parry, ilvl 93)

Damage Dealt on Turn 7 64,879 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage Dealt on Turn 7 73,719 in Crit/Det gear. (449 Parry, ilvl 93)

-EDIT- Fixt the Parry Numbers I mis read it initially, and had reported 479 in Crit/Det gear. SORRY! =P

I will GLADLY take 4859 damage to gain a level 1 limit break every 6 minutes.

How long was each fight? These numbers don't mean anything without a time.

[ZDamned]

The Parry gear fight was exactly 6 minutes and 18 seconds. I'll have to re-load my logs from the Crit/Det gear fight to give you that ones exact timer.

Honestly though, the fight, no matter how long it takes, wipes you at 7 minutes. It's an enrage that hits the entire party for 25,000 damage. So Real world numbers say The boss has 532,000 HP, so that's how long the fight is. Time is irrelevant realistically. If your killing it faster, then you ARE mitigating better, and taxing your healers less.

The boss also has an innate DPS that is visible, but in the end, If the boss deals 2000 DPS for Example, and you kill it 30 seconds faster, then you just mitigated a theoretical 60,000 damage. If I recall, (Don't quote me on this, I'll get the real number soon) the T7 boss deals only 270 DPS on average. So if we kill her 30 seconds faster, that's a mitigation of 8.1K caused directly by increased damage being put out. (Strangely enough, that's almost exactly how much less I took in Parry gear.)

The reason I don't sacrifice Vitality for damage, is because that's a guaranteed safety net. My healers have reliable breathing room with each point of Vitality I gain. Sacrificing that for Strength is only useful if your healers don't need as much breathing room. So for this fight specifically, I would actually start to equip Dragoon gear as we gain in Party ilvls. Killing her faster saves us a LOT of headaches. I will be slowly swapping gear pieces in favor of Strength each week we clear it, until my healers tell me to stop. (I do EVERYTHING with their permission BTW, because I tank for my group, not for myself.)

[bokchoykn]

When I say DPS gear, I meant to say DPS Fending gear, and it is in Shield Oath that I gain 30 DPS going from Parry to Crit/Det. Sword Oath, I tend to hit the 185 DPS mark in the Drit/Det set.

My groups Warrior does keep Storms Eye up.

Ok everyone! Results are in! Here are my Parse logs from tonight's T7 Clear, and my first T7 Clear on Sunday.

Damage taken on Turn 7 169,119 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage taken on Turn 7 173,978 in Crit/Det Gear. (449 Parry, ilvl 93)

Damage Dealt on Turn 7 64,879 in Parry gear. (564 Parry, ilvl 94)
Damage Dealt on Turn 7 73,719 in Crit/Det gear. (449 Parry, ilvl 93)

-EDIT- Fixt the Parry Numbers I mis read it initially, and had reported 479 in Crit/Det gear. SORRY! =P

I will GLADLY take 4859 damage to gain a level 1 limit break every 6 minutes.

While I agree with you that Parry is a pretty crappy stat and isn't as good as most tanks hype it out to be, your testing method is totally flawed and the results are unusable.

There are HUGE uncontrolled variables in your test that aren't accounted for. If your overall DPS increased (eg. a week's worth of upgrades for your DPS), this would skew your Damage Taken and Damage Dealt since the fight would be shorter (and not just by virtue of your own damage increasing).

Unless your teammates performance was completely and exactly equal in both attempts (impossible), using Total Damage Taken and Total Damage Dealt as metrics to measure the value of Parry vs Crit/Det is not statistically sound.

[ZDamned]

While I agree with you that Parry is a pretty crappy stat and isn't as good as most tanks hype it out to be, your testing method is totally flawed and the results are unusable.

There are HUGE uncontrolled variables in your test that aren't accounted for. If your overall DPS increased (eg. a week's worth of upgrades for your DPS), this would skew your Damage Taken and Damage Dealt since the fight would be shorter (and not just by virtue of your own damage increasing).

Unless your teammates performance was completely and exactly equal in both attempts (impossible), using Total Damage Taken and Total Damage Dealt as metrics to measure the value of Parry vs Crit/Det is not statistically sound.

That's a valid point, but in a higher ilevel, and with full parry gear, I still dealt clearly less damage. So to look at it at the very least for what it is, we went in without doing any more soldiery farming, and Drop wise, between the 2 fights, we had 3 healer upgrades, and 1 tank upgrade for my Off tank. So the DPS were virtually identicaly. and we have the encounter down to a science since we spent the better part of a week just on the fight before we finally downed it, then there was exactly 1 more attempt before the 2nd clear. Performance wise, I can attest that my party was perfectly on par, and execution went the same way each time we beat it. IE: Noone died, Noone took added Fireball damage, and noone was petrified.

If people don't want to take my results into account, I'll just do the most obvious test, and show point per point what my Rage of Halone combo can do exact number wise, with and without the Crit/Determination gear. I'll get all the statistically high and low numbers in , without any buffs at all.

But my point still stands. I dealt significantly more damage with my DPS Fending gear than I did with my parry gear, and I did not take much more damage in any noticeable way to my healers.

Truth be told, My group is very consistent with our numbers, and this fight's results are also in line with how my Turn 4 results were showing. I feel that my added damage is a helpful way to beat content that is too easy, or that requires a DPS check.

PS: My groups T6 kill was 1 Warrior Standing in Holmgang. If I didn't have my DPS gear on, we would not have gotten it that attempt, and that is absolute.

Also! I don't care about statistically sound evidence. I only care about Live Fact testing. You can Theory craft all day, and statistically, Parry IS the best option, but when you look at what happens on Live, vs on Paper, you can clearly see different results.

What you seem to be requiring of me are Robotic simulations that won't actually benefit anyone running High end raids, which is why I'm doing practical tests, instead of perfect impossible simulations.
Practicality is way more useful than theory when it comes to planning how to go about spreading gear for progression.

[bokchoykn]

snip

No group can be perfectly consistent with their numbers. One attempt, you can have healers get Shrieked all day. Another attempt, you can have your Monk get it over and over again. As I said, there are many factors that go into it that you can't possibly take into account. I'm not "requiring" anything of you. Just saying that these numbers don't mean as much as you think it does. The means of measurement is flawed and the results are unreliable. I'm not arguing against your stance on Parry vs Det/Crit because, as I said, I agree with the point you are trying to make. Just not your means of proof.

On top of all this, the merits of Parry vs Det/Crit/SS go a lot deeper than simply your personal damage dealt and damage taken, but I think I'll stop right here for now.