Parry...

[Casper]

Snip

Would like to point out that i do not necessarily disagree with you. However, in this case, the solution is not to itemize for dps over parry with tome and allagan gear, but to use crafted gear to get BOTH the parry and way more secondary stats, at the expense of a bit of vitality.

[ZDamned]

Would like to point out that i do not necessarily disagree with you. However, in this case, the solution is not to itemize for dps over parry with tome and allagan gear, but to use crafted gear to get BOTH the parry and way more secondary stats, at the expense of a bit of vitality.

the (Edit!) 3 reasons I don' like to do that are because:
1) I'm poor. =(
2) I don't like to sacrifice ilevel, or Vitality (And Defense) for the sake of DPS.
Edit! 3) After looking into it, the crafted gear is WAY lower end, and not nearly competitive with i110 raid gear.

As it stands now, Vitality is literally the "defacto" Tanking stat, and we can see great returns from Armor, in that we take greatly reduced damage from attacks compared to Dragoons, Monks and casters. So I wouldn't rule out consistent mitigation or Primary stats for the sake of secondary stats.

-EDIT-
There are not even any new Accessories to craft, and form what I know, Strength and Vitality are both capped already on each crafted piece, so in essence, your sacrificing a LOT of primary stats for the sake of secondary stats.
Crafted legs vs i110 legs: You drop 10 Strength, and 13 Vitality on just this one piece of gear for the sake of an i90 secondary stat cap. (Not worth it)

[MythToken]

hmmmmm your thoughts are interesting zdamned. I have not experienced T6 yet, but I will have to look into some of the points you bring up.
If the style of the end game fights has changed in nature, it may be time to re evaluate secondary stats.

The one crafted piece I will probably hold on to are my rose gold ear screws, as they provide me with a ton of stats across the board. Only high allagan, and noct earrings even have my interest at this point. And it is dead last on my list of upgrades.

[Casper]

Is the question really between crafted 90 and i110 though ? I mean sure once it comes to that, you will probably want to go with i110. But for the foreseeable future, the question is only between crafted 90 and i100, if even that with the sol cap.

[ZDamned]

I already have 2 pieces on my left side replaced, one is 110, and one is 100. My group has 6 and 7 on farm now, so my legs will be 110 soon too.
If your talking 100 vs i90 crafted, then thats still 5 and 6 points of Strength and Vitality respectively you are dropping.

IMO, the crafted gear was there for the first clearers who wants the best possible stats going in, but it's not all that effective after 2 weeks of even clearing turns 6 and 7 + Soldiery capping.

[Rbstr]

I don't think you want to give up ilvl for crafted + melds on any left-side stuff. Secondaries just don't make that much difference. Plus you lose out on strength that way too.
So use it if you have cash and aren't going to have the soldier/coil drop soon.

There might be a case for i90 melded accs since you could meld str or vit onto them, depending. But those don't exist so that's just hypothetical. (I am quite mad those don't exist)

[MythToken]

Is the question really between crafted 90 and i110 though ? I mean sure once it comes to that, you will probably want to go with i110. But for the foreseeable future, the question is only between crafted 90 and i100, if even that with the sol cap.

Yeah I agree Casper,one piece doesn't really matter. We are talking about maxing parry, or maxing dps stats. That would require a lot of different pieces of armor. Personally im still not sold on the DPS argument and would much rather stack parry.

[ZDamned]

@MythToken: I honestly didn't start this thread to change the tanking paradigm, but to get accurate Parry information dissected.

1) Is there a diminishing return? (Example: Up to 550 it's 0.18% per point, and after it's 0.04% per point)
2) Can you ONLY parry X many times per minute? (PPM in other games)
3) Is there a Soft Cap on Parry chance? (After X parry Rating, all else is in excess entirely)
4) Is the weight per point heavy enough to go all in for? (Are the gains from parry strong enough to overshadow every other stat the way we think of it now?)

Ultimately, I would love to have all of those questions answered, so that we may all make highly informed choices when gearing up.

[Menae]

@MythToken: I honestly didn't start this thread to change the tanking paradigm, but to get accurate Parry information dissected.

1) Is there a diminishing return? (Example: Up to 550 it's 0.18% per point, and after it's 0.04% per point)
2) Can you ONLY parry X many times per minute? (PPM in other games)
3) Is there a Soft Cap on Parry chance? (After X parry Rating, all else is in excess entirely)
4) Is the weight per point heavy enough to go all in for? (Are the gains from parry strong enough to overshadow every other stat the way we think of it now?)

Ultimately, I would love to have all of those questions answered, so that we may all make highly informed choices when gearing up.

I agree that all of those are good questions, Z. I'd like to see them answered. My GUESSES are:

1) Perhaps. This is the sort of question you really need heavy testing for.
2) Unlikely; I don't think FFXIV has any other systems like this, so it'd be odd to have one here.
3) I''d lean towards no. I mean, there's obviously one when you hit 100% parry, but prior to that? I don't know, but with how limited gear selection is in the game, I figure you'll probably hit the attainable cap for stats before you hit any mandatory hard caps.
4) I'd guess probably not, but that's more a condemnation of FFXIV secondary stats in general. For WHM at least, pretty much every secondary stat is near garbage.

(And I'm not trying to pick on you - honestly I'm not! - but 1 is a soft cap, not 3. A soft cap is where a stat suddenly drops in value, but not to zero. 3 is a hard cap, where the stat literally doesn't do anything for you after a certain point. Diminishing returns are when a stat slowly and steadily loses value as it increases. REGARDLESS OF TERMINOLOGY, those are great questions and I hope to learn the answers too.)

[LoganNinefingers]

Um no to everything you just said in the beginning of your post, nothing in this game has diminishing returns. Every single test ever run confirms this. The exception being Speed, and ACC for different reasons.
Crit being the only stat that might have an argument for diminishing returns, even though I still have not heard a good one.

By process of elimination, what you've effectively said here is "of the other secondary stats that matter to non-mages, determination doesn't have diminishing returns, but the others do/might under certain conditions", so why the immediate "Um no" response?

The vast majority of testing I've seen into any of the less understood stats has been carried out by people who either

A) have very little working knowledge of statistics;
B) are lazy; or
C) both of the above,

as, in general, they don't quote all relevant data (usually just something along the lines of "15 points Crit Rate Stat gives 1% actual crit rate increase, parser said so"), and often only use two data points (with which it is impossible to infer anything other than an often misleading linear trend).
As such, a blanket statement like yours cannot be made with any certainty at this point in time.

The fact that both Menae and ZDamned (amongst others) have recently asked for clarification on whether there are diminishing returns or a "soft cap" for Parry shows that this issue definitely hasn't been concluded once and for all, and further speculation and testing is required.

So please, stop making these sweeping declarations before any real supporting evidence is in place; for now it just spreads ignorance around the player-base, and needs to be kept in check until we have the data to say for sure one way or the other.