Parry...

[SwordCoheir]

That said, of course you aren't parrying 45%, not all attacks can be mitigated and you block then parry.

By that logic though, you've cut the usefulness of parry by half if not more depending on the instance. Even if you negotiate instances based on the types of attacks enemies use, the slower or the more magical the attacks are the more significantly blocking/parrying is crippled, and it simply won't measure up to DPS secondary stats (save for skill speed maybe) when capped accuracy removes the only factor that hurts your hate/dps "missing".

[Vique]

There are generally several schools of thoughts among tank players (in most MMO's):

1) The faster things die, the less damage you take.
These players will prefer offensive stats over defensive. More damage also means more emnity/threat/aggro. The bigger your threat lead, the more allowance you have to maintain buffs and debuffs (especially true for warriors) and other maintenance duties such as dps-ing adds, stun locking, avoiding crap, etc. without worrying about healer aggro taking over. You can also push phases faster and have to deal with annoying mechanics less ie T6. The less time an encounter takes, the less time u have to make mistakes as well. Offensive stats like strength also have passive mitigation attributes other than damage.

2) Your job is survivability and threat.
This is the official job description of a tank. These players will min max avoidance/mitigation stats and ignore damage completely. It is safe build when potency of healing and dps are variable and inconsistent or if you are unfamiliar with a new content/mechanic. You have to fend your yourself. Encounters usually run a little longer, but you can offset that by surviving better.

3) Avoidance vs mitigation
Essentially comes down to RNG vs predictability. Usually you have to sacrifice one for the other, ie choosing between onion shield and holy/allagan shield. Could be applied to parry I suppose. From experience it depends on the encounter. In my opinion, if you have multiple fast attacking mobs, avoidance is king. But if you are tanking a singular, slow hitting boss, I prefer to take mitigation. You dont normally die from sustained damage. You die because of large, unpredictable spikes. In which case if you have low(er) mitigation, and when the RNG gods are not smiling on you, you are sure to die (in some games).

Of course, there is no prevailing build as no amount of theory-crafting or practical tests can disprove the viability of any of the other builds. To be a good tank, I think one should be aware of all possible alternatives and adjust their build to suit the encounter and his teammates. However in this game, the itemization is poor, and any difference between items of the same ilevel tier usually produce differences that are quite negligible at best. Trading 1% of avoidance for 1% more damage or vice versa is a matter of choice and wont make you a better or worse tank.

[Megido]

As Casper pointed out. A 20% dps increase on a paladin is still only about 20 dps, in a group of 4 dps, all of which should now pull no less than 200, that is adding 20 dps to about 1000 dps group total (counting both tanks) give or take a few points. This is a VERY small increase.

It doesnt really matter who does the damage. That 20 dps increase would probably take a single dps weeks to get. Everything is a small increase in this game so thats not a real good argument. That 20 dps could just help you skip a phase or get a kill without having to wait another 1-2 resets, or in case of a dps dying and getting weakness on a boss barely at farm, that extra dps might just make it a non issue.

@ above, i would never trade 1% DR for 1% dmg. No tank ever should. But the difference seems to be more in favor of dmg, comparatively to your statement.

[Casper]

The difference is no more than 1% DR for 2% damage. Except in cases where you will not do any of the heavy lifting (T8 as OT for example), i don't think the extra damage is worth the loss of DR.

[PiedPiper]

By that logic though, you've cut the usefulness of parry by half if not more depending on the instance. Even if you negotiate instances based on the types of attacks enemies use, the slower or the more magical the attacks are the more significantly blocking/parrying is crippled, and it simply won't measure up to DPS secondary stats (save for skill speed maybe) when capped accuracy removes the only factor that hurts your hate/dps "missing".

Of the bosses that actually pose a threat to the tank (turn ls 5, 6, 8, etc), they attack either exclusively with massive attacks that you can mitigate, or almost exclusively.

Also, I think you underestimate the value of mitigating big slow attacks. An aa that drops you to 5k instead of 3k gives healers a gcd to use on the party rather than you. Anything you can do to give the healers more time (as this, and not mana, is the real gate on healing output) is much more important than saving one gcd.

[MythToken]

I am going to have to agree with Piper here. IF parry equates to 1-2% dr over time, that is HUGE.
Anyone arguing a tank should favor dps over DR is just wrong.

However I would still like to see some more conclusive data on parry, and more importantly how this affects warriors who cannot block.

[Casper]

I am going to have to agree with Piper here. IF parry equates to 1-2% dr over time, that is HUGE.
Anyone arguing a tank should favor dps over DR is just wrong.


However I would still like to see some more conclusive data on parry, and more importantly how this affects warriors who cannot block.

Parry is even better for Warriors, because they don't have blocks to lower their parry. Pld parry x% of the hits they dont blocks; Warrior parry x% of the hits, period.

Data on parry IS conclusive. 13 parry = 1% parry rate, with 10% base parry rate at zero additional parry @50; thus 52 parry is 4% parry rate, which at 24% DR for parry comes out at 0.98% DR. You end up with about 53 parry = 1% DR. Full parry gear compared to no parry gear is about 250 difference, so about 5% DR difference. Test it out for yourself. Numerous people have done it, including myself, and i did those tests on level 10 mobs, level 46 mobs, and on T6. Parry rate never varied with mob level and was always consistent with the formula given. It is not an unproven theory or anything.

[MythToken]

I agree with your numbers Cas, everything I have read supports those numbers. I am a bit concerned with how many people do not understand the value of parry in this thread though.

[subteraneanbird]

If those are the numbers that have been tested and proven, someone bring along parser data that supports it. Getting all haughty about "people not understanding parry" when no conclusive data has been brought forward to help us do so is rude. My issue was never that I thought those numbers were untrue. I DON'T know the numbers and even stated as such in my opening post. I think from what little both sides have offered it's a wash on who to believe, so I was gonna keep this all in mind for when I hit 50. What I had an issue with was outright dishonesty in the form of "Parry (an RNG stat) is just as effective as CDs, the backbone of tanking." and "You can stack parry to the point where you are parrying half your hits" because those are ludicrous with even the barest examination. If those are the numbers, show me the data to back it up instead of just yammering on about you having it. Data doesn't mean shit if no one can see it.

[Casper]

If those are the numbers that have been tested and proven, someone bring along parser data that supports it. Getting all haughty about "people not understanding parry" when no conclusive data has been brought forward to help us do so is rude. My issue was never that I thought those numbers were untrue. I DON'T know the numbers and even stated as such in my opening post. I think from what little both sides have offered it's a wash on who to believe, so I was gonna keep this all in mind for when I hit 50. What I had an issue with was outright dishonesty in the form of "Parry (an RNG stat) is just as effective as CDs, the backbone of tanking." and "You can stack parry to the point where you are parrying half your hits" because those are ludicrous with even the barest examination. If those are the numbers, show me the data to back it up instead of just yammering on about you having it. Data doesn't mean shit if no one can see it.

It literally would take you 10 minutes to test it out for yourself, removing any doubt you might have. Quite literally.