atma drop rates

[RiceisNice]

...
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That doesn't make sense in regards to "increasing overall droprate." It doesn't increase the droprate is what I'm getting at, and possibly what other people are getting at. You're still throwing out three dices at the end, and hoping for if one to hit the mark.

That's under the assumption that you're going to get a drop after 15 FATEs, which is not the case because it's based off a static percentage that doesn't change. It doesn't change based on how many FATEs you do, it doesn't change based on how much you tag in a given time. 3% the first time then its 3% the fifth time, and 3% the hundredth time if it comes to that.

The way I'd word it, its not "You increase your chances of getting heads if you toss a coin twice.", but "Your chances of getting heads on the second toss is still the same if you toss a coin twice". It's a poor analogy because its 50/50, but that's the point I'm getting at.

[YanDere]

"You increase your chances of getting heads if you toss a coin twice."

Well the fact is, you actually do increase your chances.
Dropping 1 atma from 1 FATE is more unlikely than dropping 1 atma from 2 FATEs. Each roll has 3% chance but the more FATEs you do, the more chances you'll have of dropping that ONE atma you need from MULTIPLE FATEs.
So that being said, doing more FATEs in less time increases the odds of dropping, and this is a fact.
Avoid comments like "explain me how a 3% drop can change if it's always 3%", that would be stupid, just read above in the 9999999 comments I made explaining it in different ways.

[Axlle10]

The quote is too messy.
You got the single phrases and cut them out of their context.
The grind is something very long and, for most players, boring. The grind is, by definition, something you don't like doing, that leads to a very good reward.
You can't ask for equality in an RNG-based grind, it's stupid.
Accept it, or don't do it, because atma grinding is not "for the skin", but for the animus: it's like saying that Hydra and Chimera are useless because I spent more time doing Ifrit-Garuda-Titan than them. You don't do animus by completing 9 books, you do it by completing A relic reborn, then grinding 12 atmas, then completing 9 books. You didn't spend more time grinding atmas than doing animus, because you were doing animus all along.

Did not take any of your statements out of context. those were the core statements of your arguments. Its sad that you beat around the bush and try to justify a broken system with a logical fallacy. Its not always possible to farm efficiently, i proved you were wrong on that. The grind was not very long for some players, i proved you were wrong on that as well. Equality indeed can happen. Smart game companies have done it, and they continue to do it. SE even did it when they gave multiple ways on how you can obtain the Animus/Novus upgrades. People love options, and thats what they should have done for something so meaningless as just a new skin. So.... guess what, proved you wrong on that too

And if we were talking about the absolute start of the relic quest > Novus then yes, atma is not just for a skin. But guess what. This topic concerns ONLY the atma stage. Nothing of the animus and novus systems are being discussed here.

So basically you are stating all opinions on how you gathered all 12 atma. You never had to deal with any of the issues that most others have. You are turning a blind eye to any sort of logical reasoning as to why its not good for a game to block something behind a purely RNG system with such a small reward as a new skin.

it's getting to the point that getting this weapon is starting to make this game a lot less fun

and when game companies see a lot of these, they tend to do something sooner or later, which they have already said they are doing. But now its just going to be save up 1300 soldiery and get a UAT from ST. and thats all people are gonna do till they fix this broken system.

[Avarghaladion]

More seriously though, this confirms that there's nothing wrong with my character and I'm not doing it wrong, which is something I've worried about for a long time. I had thought that maybe there's some game bug or that I'm missing something really stupid.
Nope, it's not me, Atma is just incredibly stupid and unfair.

I had the same concern during my last dry spell. I finally got another Atma to drop after about 80 hours of nothing. During that time it felt like my character was glitched or something. I submitted a bug report and got an Atma a few days later. This doesn't confirm that there was anything wrong with my character but it does highlight another major problem with the Atma system: the absolute lack of transparency. You have no way of knowing if you're falling victim to a bug of some kind unless you actually get the Atma drop. This is true of most RNG except Atma is so incredibly rare that it's difficult to verify.

An effective solution would be to do something like they did for DoH/DoL i70 grinds. Make an item called "Atma" or "Uninfused Atma" drop every single time you complete a FATE with a Zenith on. The sole purpose of the item would be to trade it in to the quest-giver for a food that can bolster your Atma drop rate. This solves the problem of transparency by showing players that there isn't anything wrong with the programming or their character and it would actually make it semi-bearable by ameliorating the system overall through a Lore based boost.

I can't help but see the same problem being repeated in the future; There's always an alternative which is both more accessible and more-or-less the same stats (ST and hunts giving tomestones and allied seals for unweathered weapons)

This is a major concern of mine. The implementation feels very F2P-esque. I want to say that at some point SE is going to have to stop screwing around with relic, given that with each stage it becomes, increasingly, the most difficult weapon option to acquire. I don't have a lot of faith in SE right now when it comes to content balance though.

[RiceisNice]

This is a major concern of mine. The implementation feels very F2P-esque. I want to say that at some point SE is going to have to stop screwing around with relic, given that with each stage it becomes, increasingly, the most difficult weapon option to acquire. I don't have a lot of faith in SE right now when it comes to content balance though.

Even by F2P standards, this sort of grind blows some of the korean MMO's grind fest out of the water. And it's made even worse like I mentioned that the end-reward hasn't been BiS since release, let alone even be 2nd BiS without contention (esp when other options are easier to obtain like I mentioned).

At least with Alexendrites and the books, you have a sense of progress, if even little per day. Atma can feel like an exercise in futility when you spend hours on it with nothing to show for it.

[EricCartmenez]

YanDere, that logic is completely wrong. You don't get a 'buff' from running more fates. It works like this: 1 fate - 3% change. 3 fates - 3% chance. Why? Because each fate is the same and you don't carry over the pass/fail ratio from one fate to the other. You can do 1,000 fates, you still have exactly the same % chance for a drop at the start of each of those thousand fates. Your logic would mean that I have a better chance of winning the lottery playing the same number each time. If I play 1-10-100-5-30 my whole life and live to be 70, buying a ticket every week of my life as an adult (18 and up), I've purchased 53*52 tickets or 2756 tickets. So when I am 70, I have a better chance of winning than the person who just bought his/her first ticket ever? No. The chances of winning reset every time you play. They don't become additive.


You run a fate - drop rate is X%. Next fate, drop rate is still X%, it doesn't change. A RNG is just that. It randomly generates a number and either an atma is dropped or it is not. The % is an average of the number of times the generator produces a drop. That factor doesn't change, no matter your number of fate.

Now, what can change is this: number of people involved in the fate. If a single atma stone is dropped for a given number of people, your chance for success is lowered by a larger party of persons involved in the fate. That's because you now have the chance that a fate is dropped coupled with the chance that you among the other people will get one. That's why fate parties are a dumb idea. Run fates, get your atma, move on. That's what I did. Took longest to get the Lion the second time. First time, it was in Drybone. Going to start my 3rd soon.

Got my second Atma weapon over the weekend and still had plenty of time to level up two characters in the Destiny Beta, take part in hunts, and spirit bond with two full sets of clothing.

White Mage


Bard

[Ringabell]

YanDere, that logic is completely wrong. You don't get a 'buff' from running more fates. It works like this: 1 fate - 3% change. 3 fates - 3% chance. Why? Because each fate is the same and you don't carry over the pass/fail ratio from one fate to the other. You can do 1,000 fates, you still have exactly the same % chance for a drop at the start of each of those thousand fates. Your logic would mean that I have a better chance of winning the lottery playing the same number each time. If I play 1-10-100-5-30 my whole life and live to be 70, buying a ticket every week of my life as an adult (18 and up), I've purchased 53*52 tickets or 2756 tickets. So when I am 70, I have a better chance of winning than the person who just bought his/her first ticket ever? No. The chances of winning reset every time you play. They don't become additive.


You run a fate - drop rate is X%. Next fate, drop rate is still X%, it doesn't change. A RNG is just that. It randomly generates a number and either an atma is dropped or it is not. The % is an average of the number of times the generator produces a drop. That factor doesn't change, no matter your number of fate.

Now, what can change is this: number of people involved in the fate. If a single atma stone is dropped for a given number of people, your chance for success is lowered by a larger party of persons involved in the fate. That's because you now have the chance that a fate is dropped coupled with the chance that you among the other people will get one. That's why fate parties are a dumb idea. Run fates, get your atma, move on. That's what I did. Took longest to get the Lion the second time. First time, it was in Drybone. Going to start my 3rd soon.

Got my second Atma weapon over the weekend and still had plenty of time to level up two characters in the Destiny Beta, take part in hunts, and spirit bond with two full sets of clothing.

IRT Blue:

Yes and no. The chance to get an Atma for EACH FATE would be 3%, but your OVERALL chance to get an Atma would increase.

This simple analogy should help you see clearly.

I flip a coin. There's a 50% chance I'll get heads right? Right.

I flip it again. There's ANOTHER 50% chance I'll get heads right? Right.

But my overall chance of getting at least one heads has increased.

If I flip that coin 1,000 times, is there still only a 50% chance I'll get ONE heads? Nope. At that point the odds are 99.99999% I'll get at least one.

IRT Red

False. I've seen multiple instances of more than one person in a party getting an Atma on the same FATE.

[EricCartmenez]

We're saying the same thing differently, Ringabell. Each fate has the same drop rate, and that does not change. Each has a an independent outcome that has an X% rate of drop - just like your coin example. It becomes less likely that you will fail at achieving heads the more often you flip the coin. The same goes for each atma drop. It is less likely that you will fail the more you do. But that doesn't change the fact that each drop is independent of the last and does not affect the next or last.

BTW, I fell into the trap of believing that there was only one drop per fate as posted by someone else before. That was dumb.

[Jx00x]

I've been FATE grinding for the past two weeks in Outer LaNoscea attempting to get my final Atma, and according to the achievement log, I have done 90 FATEs as of three days ago (have not done a FATE outside of Outer LaNoscea since I started), so I can say I have done at least 180 FATEs (90 in three days plus the other 8-days-ish that I wasnt keeping track during, and doing just as many FATEs those previous days), there really needs to be some sort of change to this system, it's getting to the point that getting this weapon is starting to make this game a lot less fun

[Avarghaladion]

That's where I'd have trouble believing that this actually improves the odds of getting an Atma. I don't see the probability thing being applicable in something like this. I've had parties a couple of times and we've even come to a complete stop at times because the entire map was cleared of FATEs.

It doesn't improve the odds per attempt but each attempt improves the odds of getting Atma relative to the number of overall attempts in accordance with the formula P = 1 - (1-x)^y where P is the probability of getting one drop in y attempts at a drop percentage of x. This merely reinforces the common knowledge that more attempts = better overall chances of success at least once. This is facile though and I'm not sure why some people keep brining it up like it's the key to Atma farming... everyone already attempts to do this when Atma farming whether they know it or not. It's how you fundamentally play the game. This isn't the problem. For any pedants out there, the issue is exactly that stated in the thread's title: the drop rate is too low. The rate at which the item drops relative to the number of FATEs we run is what's being addressed here, not the drops per time. That is merly a side effect of the exceptionally low drop rate. Using sheer probability it is demonstratable that the RNG aspect of Atma is totally unacceptable.

Go ahead and plug 0.03 and 100 into that equation for x and y, respectively. At a 3% drop rate there's a 95% chance you'll get at least one drop in those 100 attempts. Now plug in 0.01 for x, representing a 1% drop rate. There would be a 63% chance of you getting at least 1 Atma in 100 fates at a 1% drop rate. Now.... this may appear reasonable but we must realize that there are lots of people who go hundreds and hundreds of FATEs without a drop. By the apologists' own logic this is probabilistically unreasonable in the number of people we're seeing with this extremely common issue. Furthermore, claiming these have a 3% drop rate is extremely generous. We have people approaching 1000 FATEs before they get an Atma weapon and others who aren't even that lucky.... meanwhile there are people on the forums, lambasting others, who got theirs in less than 100.