Thief/Ninja looks to be Inbound

[Kitru]

I believe they will go the way of making a new base class.. say Rogue for now, and then it's level 30 would be a choice between thief or ninja. Ninja being sorta caster dps, melee aoe, things like that, while thief would go the role of support more, in which they steal things from the mobs, like thier buffs, and applying debuffs, bleeds, dots, etc. So they could make Ninja a higher dps, but thief more of a support.

And no matter how much you tried to differentiate THF and NIN with their 5 job skills, they would still play almost exactly the same, which is why you will never see 2 jobs stemming from the same class with the same role. If you want to claim that "support" is a role, it's not; it is a subrole of which BRD is the only real example.

They may also go the way of suprising people and making one of them a tank class, ninja a dodge tank lol like FF 11?

They will never make NIN a tank. Yoshi has said so, and everyone who hasn't played FFXI or played FFXI and actually understands the history behind why NIN became a tank realizes that, unless the devs do something equally stupid, NIN will not be a tank.

(btw, in FFXI, NIN wasn't an evasion tank; it was a blink tank; different set of mechanics)

or thief they could steal hate off people and steal hp with their attacks, things like that.

Enmity modification would be an essentially useless set of utility, and stealing hp is just a copy of any of a number of existing self heal based upon damage effects (Inner Beast is an "hp steal": it does damage and gives you the exact same amount as healing). Every other form of utility that a THF could provide based upon its historical abilities (re: steal) in the FF series would either be useless or end up making it a DoL class since the devs are never going to allow for one DoM/DoW class to have an explicit economic advantage over the other nor allow a DoM/DoW to tread upon the demesne of the DoL classes. Classically, the only THF attack is simply "attack" and they're not even particularly effective fighters. The only value in having a THF in party was gear/loot acquisition, which provided advantage because it often gave you gear that was unique and/or accessible earlier than you could buy it or get it through any other means.

I just don't think they will bring out 2 new dps classes...

Which is why we will never see both THF and NIN as (combat) jobs. The only roles they could possible be are DPS, and there's no way the devs are going to have both based off of the same class. The "separate classes" argument doesn't apply because Yoshi has explicitly stated that he's not going to include classes within the same niche, and THF and NIN are member of the same niche (light armored, stealth, short blade/dagger DPS).

We're either getting THF or NIN as a job; we're not getting both. If we're getting NIN as a job, it's going to be based off of the THF base class.

[PenutButter]

Doubt its gonna be ranger, rangers would just be a redundancy of bards. This would mean that bards would have to changed, probably to a more supportive role, which will bring in the issue of balance and how this new role will fit into everything. Regardless, seriously seriously seriously doubt we're gonna be seeing a new job/class til expansion.

[DoubleT]

man this thread got derailed an never really came back huh lol

1. Yoshi stated himself, classes jobs = updates, races = x-packs (on that note, Yoshi does flip-flop on stuff constantly. Idk if i would outright call him a liar as someone else tried to imply earlier but he does definatly change his mind alot lol)
2. He stated the first of these jobs would be musketeer & thf/nin (which will be dual-weilding stealth dps such as rogues from WoW, confirmed by yoshi in the same post)
3. why all this talk about rng's? SE has NEVER said anything about rng yet lol. an why all of the debate on how its impossible for rng to come from archer? Replace the 5 songs with 5 damage dealing abilites/buffs. BOOM you have a rng that deals more dmg than a brd lol that was soooooo hard. I do think it would be pretty cool to hybridize rng an beatmaster into one like WOW's hunter. And no im not a ex-WoW player lol i am actually ex-xi player.
4. rdm's an runefencers use rapiers, so they will not be coming from gld or war lol most liekly a new fencer class would have to be introduced (not to mention that a rdm with only 5 rdm spells would suck lol)
5. yes Yugiri does state that she will begin teaching her job asap, therfore leading us to believe we will recieve thf/nin within the next patch or 2.
6. yes msk has been due since 1.0, but nowhere in any of the cs's did Merlwyb state that it was being opened up soon, she just shot a gun, which she should do, since it is her weapon lol. She didnt even show off any cool abilites like thancred an yugiri did, jsut shot a couple of shots. So i dont think msk is coming yet, but if it does cool good for SE, about time lol.

p.s. an before yall say, "the whole debate was not about rng being stronger than brd, but brd being made weaker in comparison", Brd was never meant to be top dps, hence the reason their dps got nerfed when they were the top dps lol so a rng being higher than brd on the dps scale would make total sense.

[Kitru]

dual-weilding stealth dps such as rogues from WoW, confirmed by yoshi in the same post

He's also said that dual wielding is going to be a purely aesthetic construct. THF/NIN are going to use a single MH slot that is a brace of daggers/swords, not 2 weapons equipped independently in MH and OT.

Replace the 5 songs with 5 damage dealing abilites/buffs. BOOM you have a rng that deals more dmg than a brd lol that was soooooo hard. I do think it would be pretty cool to hybridize rng an beatmaster into one like WOW's hunter. And no im not a ex-WoW player lol i am actually ex-xi player.

At which point RNG becomes the best DPS around. BRD's DPS is balanced against casters and mDPS because it is the most unrestricted: it can move as much as it wants and still contribute all of its DPS and is always at the least risk because it's at range. BRD's DPS is not balanced against the other DPS (re: slightly lower) because of its songs (the songs already lower DPS so their cost to DPS is built into them). It's balanced because of it's mobility and range.

And, once again, you're ignoring the fact that it would still play like an archer 99% of the time. 5 job abilities cannot fundamentally change the playstyle of a class for a given role; too much is loaded onto the class. There's little to no reason for the developers to expend the resource to develop a job if it's going to play (like an existing one for the same class even) 99% of the time.

Furthermore, if you actually look at the series, RNG and Archer are synonymous. The trademark RNG abilities (Aim and Barrage) already belong to the ARC class, which is effectively saying that RNG is in game; people are just perturbed that it's called ARC instead of RNG because they want FFXIV to only use the naming conventions from FFXI.

That's 3 major reasons why we're not going to see RNG: balance, development, and precedence.

[Deathscythe343]

people are just perturbed that it's called ARC instead of RNG because they want FFXIV to only use the naming conventions from FFXI.

That isn't why I would like to see a ranger job in this game. You seem to be generalizing people that have a desire to see this job. I was actually hoping for something similar to an EQ ranger. If it gets put into the game, ok. If not, that's ok too.

[Hiroradius]

Something else I was thinking of.

Current FF14 raid style is 8 man parties.

In which 2 tanks, 2 healers are a giving. It seems that for coil a bard is required, which leaves 3 slots.. which has been 2 range and 1 melee, by most standards of raiders.

Now if thief and ninja come out, and assuming that they will be the job/class aspect (thief being the class, ninja being the job crystal) that is another melee, while it will balance out the 3 range 3 melee, it will cause an issue with raiding in which now 3 classes are fighting for one spot. The range aspect is usually figured to be a black mage and summoner or 2 black mages (rarely do you hear of coil end game raids using 2 summoner), will this change end game raiding in which a) bards are NOT required anymore so we do 2 melee and 2 range? or b) dragoons get forgotten altogether? lol

He's also said that dual wielding is going to be a purely aesthetic construct. THF/NIN are going to use a single MH slot that is a brace of daggers/swords, not 2 weapons equipped independently in MH and OT.

I don't know, I think they will design a main hand/off hand weapon but being specific with them, kinda like the sword and shield aspect or how miners work, pickaxe main hand and that hammer thing off hand.. I think this is how it will work for dual wielders.. they will have specific gear designed for their off hand, you won't be able to by 2 bronze swords and equip them, but maybe a bronze sword and a new off-hand designed dagger.

1. Yoshi stated himself, classes jobs = updates, races = x-packs (on that note, Yoshi does flip-flop on stuff constantly. Idk if i would outright call him a liar as someone else tried to imply earlier but he does definatly change his mind alot lol)
2. He stated the first of these jobs would be musketeer & thf/nin (which will be dual-weilding stealth dps such as rogues from WoW, confirmed by yoshi in the same post)
3. why all this talk about rng's? SE has NEVER said anything about rng yet lol. an why all of the debate on how its impossible for rng to come from archer? Replace the 5 songs with 5 damage dealing abilites/buffs. BOOM you have a rng that deals more dmg than a brd lol that was soooooo hard. I do think it would be pretty cool to hybridize rng an beatmaster into one like WOW's hunter. And no im not a ex-WoW player lol i am actually ex-xi player.

1) yes this is what yoshi said from the beginning, also level cap increases will come in patches also, not expansions.. Patches are for content update, jobs, levels.. Expansions will be new races, new areas... Now how will we get a level upgrade in a patch without a new leveling area?? I don't know, but that is what he stated and we will just have to wait and see if this is how he will work it (or was it a bad translation to us)

2) I don't ever remember seeing this stated. What I read was a statement about future classes that he would like to release thief and ninjas as scouting class, and he also wanted red mage and blue mage to be released as his first new classes (I wish I could find the interview, but I can't..sorry, if I find the interview I will edit this post and link it in), in 1.0 discussions there was always talks about musketeer class, but 2.0 I don't remember Yoshi talking about, just fans.

3) All this talk about Ranger is coming up because people are unhappy with the design of the bard, and how bard's were giving nerfs. You can't change 5 songs into dps abilities because Bard plays as a dps class (most bards forget to sing), and Ranger would have to change the way the class plays, if you just take away songs and make them into dps abilities, Bards would be played the same just doing more damage and basically setting up either black mages and summoners to need huge buffs to keep up OR black mages and summoners would not be invited to raids due to lack of dps. If there will be a specific Ranger class, it most likely will be a pet class, as I stated once before, you always need to look at the Final Fantasy history of the class.. one game made Ranger's high end dps, every other final fantasy with rangers made them more of pet classes (summoner animals to attack and things like that).. It's kinda like everyone thinks dragoons should have had the wyvern pet yet only 11 gave them a pet class, all other dragoon history and lore deals with them being dragon hunters and elite knights.

Found the link--http://gamerescape.com/2013/02/21/gamer-escape-talks-to-naoki-yoshida-on-the-ffxiv-media-tour/

Also, I'm just cutting and pasting a certain section, but you can go back and read the whole interview if you wish.

GE- With ARR we’ll see Arcanist added with Summoner shortly after the game launches. Are there any other classes or jobs you’d like to see added? And will these be added in patches or expansions?

Yoshida- What I would like to see right?

First of all, we are planning a new race for an expansion pack. For the classes and jobs, we will introduce them through patches because all of the Legacy players have level 50 jobs anyway. When we introduce new classes and jobs we will probably increase the level cap at the same time.

About what I want to introduce- it’s more like what I think I have to introduce. Something related to guns because the (musketeer) guild in the game. Something related to that I think I have to introduce.

Also I do feel that scouting classes are lacking so I want to bring in Theif, Ninja and those that have to do with stealth. Also more casters like Blue Mage and Red Mage are something I would like to add.

This is where he talked about adding new races to expansions and new jobs AND level cap increases in patches.. which he states is because of the legacy players lol. What may happen is this patch the new job and level cap?? (still not sure that will happen) and then expansion new race, new jobs and then from there on out keep them with expansions.

Rosa is a straight up WHM that just so happens to use a bow. She has nowhere near the stats to be a DPS of any kind.

And this one just for the record.

Trademark Ranger ability per final fantasy is "Aim" and "Barrage".. Rosa has aim. Next, Rydia, Palom, and Tellah were also able to equip bows, BUT you kept them with Rosa because of Aim. There were also staffs for white mages, and even staffs in end game but you for the most part would keep rosa with Bow and Arrow for dps and she had Aim, 100% chance of hit.

Also, Rosa with the Bow & Arrow COULD keep up with dps with edge, cecil, and kain (if he didn't jump), you just needed to change her arrows around to take advantage of weakness.

Porom in final fantasy 4 was a straight up white mage, rosa was a cross class, just like Rydia was a cross class summoner/black mage (remember the other final fantasy's summoners did not have access to black mage or white mage spells they just summon'd and used that, and final fantasy 9 and 10, the summoner were white mages, not black mages)

[Kitru]

I don't know, I think they will design a main hand/off hand weapon but being specific with them, kinda like the sword and shield aspect or how miners work, pickaxe main hand and that hammer thing off hand.. I think this is how it will work for dual wielders.. they will have specific gear designed for their off hand, you won't be able to by 2 bronze swords and equip them, but maybe a bronze sword and a new off-hand designed dagger.

Considering that's what Yoshi has said multiple times in response to the dual wielding question, I think that's what they're going to go with.

Furthermore, the single slot solution makes a helluva lot more sense from a developmental standpoint. In ARR, only the MH weapon has a damage stat and it's identical for all weapons based entirely upon ilvl. OH items simply provide lower stats and, potentially, block rating/value, which is provided by nothing else (which is basically saying that everything else contributes block rating/value 0). By splitting weapon damage into MH and OH, you're forcing a rework of the system where roughly one-third of weapon damage is derived from the OH slot (it's already possible to have different weapons use different growth rates, but the problem is moreso derived from having weapon damage drawn from multiple sources).

This creates further balancing problems because it's requiring 2 drops for the same effective offensive increase that is accomplished by 1 drop for everyone else. Since OH items drop at a different rate and at different times than MH weapons (re: allagan shield drops in t1, allagan sword drops in t5), you'd be providing an explicit offensive advantage since they would be able to upgrade their damage (albeit not the entirety of their damage) before anyone else. It's fine for shields because the stat advantage is miniscule and increased block rating/value is actually something that *should* be upgraded independently of weapon damage. I also creates problems as to *how* you should upgrade weapon damage: going from i90 to i95 is a 1 point increase to MH weapon damage. If the MH weapon gets that point, the OH weapon would be an effectively nonexistent upgrade because it would only provide a whopping 1 mainstat, 1 VIT, and 2 secondary skill points. The major advantage of MH/OH items isn't in the stats they provide but in the direct increase to weapon damage (which absolutely every attack/heal you have is based off of) or block value/rating.

There are other developmental issues as well: it doubles the amount of design work required, requires animations to be designed such that they work with both a single weapon and both weapons (since, at the start, you're not going to have an OH item, nor will you be absolutely required to have one on hand, unless they seriously feel like requiring virtually all of your attacks to have an OH weapon equipped to even activate it to get around this), and increases the effect of the class upon loot tables (since you're adding OH weapons to the loot tables; as it stands, THF/NIN is most likely going to share either MNK/PGL or ARC/BRD gear so gear tweaking of the loot tables isn't going to be all that significant outside of the weapons).

Even if the devs don't find these problems to be a major issue, creating separate MH and OH weapons for a dual wielding class doesn't even add appreciably to the game. The only "advantage" is that you can now have a mismatched pair of weapons (which is assuming that the devs don't include single slot braces of daggers that have different appearances).

Furthermore, if you look at Thancred and Yugiri in the cutscenes, you'll notice that both of them use matched pairs. The devs have the ability to aesthetically provide unmatched pairs to individuals (Merlwyb's 2 guns), but they elected not to do so for our only exposure to THF/NIN.

When you factor in all of this, Yoshi's repeated statements, the developmental problems and lack of advantages, and the existing evidence in game, it's basically guaranteed that any dual wielding we get is going to be purely aesthetic. It just makes more sense to do it like that.

[Deathscythe343]

snip

I actually think that they will probably go the monk route when doing the weapons for the thief/ninja.

[Aeora]

Man, I don't really care for all that nonsense. . . . I just want to hang up my Sphairai and get to dual wielding!

[Tyvek]

What if Ninja doesnt come yet and we get a dancer tank job and a thief dps off of scoundrel base class?