PLD or MRD?

[Deroth]

I recommend leveling them both up to Brayflox L32, run that on both; whichever one you like best at that point take to L50 first.

[Set]

I guess 1 obvious answer is being ignored as well. Both

This is what I did and really like having both tanks I can sub in where they fit best.

[Jediman]

One or both of these classes will likely be tanks or have a tanking mode that's at least good enough for light parties if not raiding. What exactly would be wrong with this?

I rather have them fulfill their job roles DPS stays as DPS and vice versa. or we can always have healers as tanks and act like paladins lol

[Kitru]

1. warrior tank Butcher's Block rotation
2. warrior DPS Storm's Path/Storm's Eye rotation
3. paladin Rage of Halone rotation

None of those is the top WAR DPS rotation. BB>SE is the top damage rotation. If you're doing it right, every rotation except for BB spam is going to do more damage than PLD as well.

I can record it if you really don't believe. This is completely removing gear from the analysis as well because they both have same conceptual gear.

And I've done tests with parsers as well as done the math on potency per GCD numerous times. WAR, when properly played, does more damage. The only way PLD does better is if the WAR is doing it wrong (which is what you're doing, looks like). Because it's basically impossible to screw up a PLD, people that don't know what they're doing are going to see better damage on a PLD, but that doesn't mean that PLD does more damage than a WAR.

It has nothing to do with the number of mitigation abilities, it is the total amount of damage mitigated. If I gave you 30 abilities that mitigate 1% does that make it better than vengence because you have 30 of them. Warriors have increased HP and healing for a reason, they can't mitigate damage like a paladin with a shield.

First off, you're the one that brought up the number. You specifically said that PLD had "more mitigation skills" which is explicitly wrong as I pointed out. Secondly, "mitigation" is not the same thing as "damage reduction" even if the two terms are often conflated by the uneducated. Increased healing received *is* mitigation because it means that you need less healing to offset the same amount of incoming damage so it's not even true to say that PLD has more damage mitigation overall.

[Ehayte]

Quote: Theorycraft garbage that stopped being relevant 4 months ago.

Response: WAR is your active management tank, PLD has more straightforward traditional tanking abilities. And my "more" I mean its ability are closer in usage to a standard sword and board tanking class, not that they are more numerous.

The thing I will bring to the conversation is that I think it is a lot harder to be an adequate WAR than PLD. I also think that it is a lot harder to be an exceptional PLD than WAR.

[Zourin]

It's generally safe to say that PLD's reduce incoming damage significantly better than WAR's (which is why wars have a thick HP pool). Shield Oath, Rampart, Convalescence, Sentinel, and Hallowed Ground skills are all a part of the core paladin skillset, and I don't believe the WAR has nearly as many universally effective options (Foresight isn't effective against magic damage, for example)

Paladins have only one DOT AOE effect at their disposal by comparison, and alongside Flash, constitute a Paladins' entire array of area control abilities. Warriors will almost always excel in multitarget control over a paladin. They are *slightly* weaker when it comes to absolute threat control of single targets in that they have to borrow Provoke from Gladiators, but there's no real difference in effect for either class.


Short end:
Paladins excel in single, heavy-damage target tanking, particularly when magic damage is involved, but can struggle controlling large numbers of targets without being very up-to-date in gear
Marauders excel in multitarget control, hands down, no contest, and can survive just about any single high damage hit, but are generally not as efficient to be taking sustained dps from a single source for long. Being a 'second up'-flavored tank comes with better damage output in general.

In the end, they're close enough that it doesn't matter who's actually tanking. The rule of thumb for MT/OT still stands: the best equipped should step forward, although in an either/or situation, the paladin should probably be the one holding the Big Bad down.

[Set]

None of those is the top WAR DPS rotation. BB>SE is the top damage rotation. If you're doing it right, every rotation except for BB spam is going to do more damage than PLD as well.

so you do Butcher's Block -> Storm's Eye, you must do horrible damage then read the abilities. You completely ignore maim for damage buff and have 2 abilities that are not even in rotation nerfing the damage on them.

Butcher's Block
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Additional Effect: Increased enmity.
Combo Action: Skull Sunder, Combo Potency: 280.

Storm's Eye
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Maim, Combo Potency: 270
Combo Bonus: Decreases target's slashing resistance by 10% and HP recovery via curing magic by 50% for 15s.
Grants Wrath when used with Defiance for 30s.

So here are the options on rotations and your BB->SE doesn't fill anyone of them
1) Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder
2) Heavy Swing > Maim
3) Maim > Storm's Path
4) Maim > Storm's Eye
5) Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block
6) Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Path
7) Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Eye
8) Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block

And I've done tests with parsers as well as done the math on potency per GCD numerous times. WAR, when properly played, does more damage. The only way PLD does better is if the WAR is doing it wrong (which is what you're doing, looks like). Because it's basically impossible to screw up a PLD, people that don't know what they're doing are going to see better damage on a PLD, but that doesn't mean that PLD does more damage than a WAR.

So You ran the math and have parsers, lets see them. I can say I wrote a mod that screen scrapes them both and I found PLD do 500 more DPS than warrior. Doesn't mean it is true just means I can type words too. Like I said I don't need to argue it you can just find out for yourself using GCD counting on killing mobs. I explained my methods how about you explain yours. I am open to being proven wrong but proven is the key word I am not taking your word for it.

Also from your Butcher's Block -> Storm's Eye explanation above it is obvious you don't know basic rotations.

First off, you're the one that brought up the number. You specifically said that PLD had "more mitigation skills" which is explicitly wrong as I pointed out. Secondly, "mitigation" is not the same thing as "damage reduction" even if the two terms are often conflated by the uneducated. Increased healing received *is* mitigation because it means that you need less healing to offset the same amount of incoming damage so it's not even true to say that PLD has more damage mitigation overall.

No I said "PLD has a higher mitigation than warrior but less HP and no healing buff" so before you quote someone make sure your quote is accurate.

[Set]

And Kitru please point to your post here http://tinyurl.com/l76sdsd so I can completely annihilate your failure to compensate for a ton of things.

See the thing you lack is empirical data, all of your data is theoretical and ephemeral.

[Kitru]

so you do Butcher's Block -> Storm's Eye, you must do horrible damage then read the abilities. You completely ignore maim for damage buff and have 2 abilities that are not even in rotation nerfing the damage on them.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? BB>SE refers to using the relevant combos in that order. Hell, you even use a similar model when you described your method. Being able to copy-paste ability descriptions doesn't really mean anything when you're incapable of actually understanding what's being discussed.

If you want simple evidence, just do the math for the explicit potency/GCD that WAR and PLD are each capable of. Unless you want to believe that PLD somehow gets more out of each individual point of potency than WAR does, you're doing it wrong. Hell, I seriously doubt that you're actually counting GCDs properly if that's really what you're doing over long periods of time.

No I said "PLD has a higher mitigation than warrior but less HP and no healing buff" so before you quote someone make sure your quote is accurate.

The person I was quoting that you were explicitly responding to explicitly said "more mitigation skills". If you're going to get anal retentive about quoting, at least go back and read the quotes as they're written. The person I was quoting was explicitly wrong about the number of mitigation skills. Even if the number doesn't have much bearing upon performance (and, yes, I know it doesn't; average and burst performance over time are what matter), the person was still explicitly wrong in their statement, and it's also why I described the general difference between the WAR and PLD CD suites while pointing out that they perform equally well over time.

[Kitru]

And Kitru please point to your post here http://tinyurl.com/l76sdsd so I can completely annihilate your failure to compensate for a ton of things.

I didn't point to it because it's old, and I haven't bothered updating it in 4 months. If I wanted to show you my math, I would reference these two posts. As to it being purely theoretical and ephemeral, I would like to point out that I've at least provided something other than anecdotal evidence involving laughably unreliable measurement.

Also, I welcome people trying to poke holes in my math. It's always funny because there's yet to be someone who didn't try to do it and just turned out to be even more wrong.