Lack of tanks in the game

[NotTheNameIWanted]

I like the way tanking is right now, maybe *slight* improvements on enmity gains for certain skills, but something like tripling the threat on Flash would just turn this game into WoW. Believe it or not, I like having to tab-target and sometimes fight with a DPS to get aggro back. It makes it feel like a party experience, as opposed to "do this rotation and you *never* lose threat".

Something I *do* think would help is if they took the Stun off the GCD and made it a 5 sec CD or something. It feels really clunky to have to choose between building/maintaining emnity, or wasting a GCD or two by simply auto-attacking so I don't miss an interrupt because it was on GCD when the cast bar went up. Plus Interrupts already stop being effective for a while on the same target after the third, so there's really no point in locking it out for so long. It should be more of a reactionary thing, it feels better that way.

The main reason I like tanking is *because* it's more stressful than other roles (but not RL job stress, just "takes more focus because I have more responsibility"). Yes, you get crapped on more often, yes, you need to have better gear, yes, you need to know the fights better than other roles most of the time (because most of the success relies on positioning), but I like it that way. If it gets changed to be something too easy, I'll lose interest and leave. Like I did with WoW. I know it'll happen eventually, but I just got here. Please don't be begging for nerfs to the joy of the class already, eating trash for being the leader is part of the role. If tanking gets made easier, DF might as well be a single-player experience.

[Zirael_Foxfire]

I like the way tanking is right now, maybe *slight* improvements on enmity gains for certain skills, but something like tripling the threat on Flash would just turn this game into WoW. Believe it or not, I like having to tab-target and sometimes fight with a DPS to get aggro back. It makes it feel like a party experience, as opposed to "do this rotation and you *never* lose threat". [...]

Don't get me wrong, I don't have problems splitting combos to maintain hate. My only issue is, it costs too much TP/MP, especially in lv <30 dungeons to secure hate at start of the fight. So I either have to dump my TP/MP every pull or ask BLMs and SMN not to play their job correctly. That's my gripe.

[NotTheNameIWanted]

Don't get me wrong, I don't have problems splitting combos to maintain hate. My only issue is, it costs too much TP/MP, especially in lv <30 dungeons to secure hate at start of the fight. So I either have to dump my TP/MP every pull or ask BLMs and SMN not to play their job correctly. That's my gripe.

Balancing the game for <30 threat generation is a bad idea though. And even if you do lose aggro every now and then each dungeon, *most* people aren't going to get uppity about it. Those that do are either jerks that more threat generation wouldn't fix (because they'd be jerks about something else), or panicky newbies who think having a mob punch them in the face a few times while the tank gets aggro back = bad tanking (which sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't - reality is, bad tanks just don't ever get aggro back, good tanks get on the mob ASAP or maybe let the aggro slip stay because it's on low HP and dies in 1 or 2 GCDs anyway). Both are things tanks just need to learn to deal with being the leader of the groups, if you never ate trash for other people's mistakes/not operating at 100% yourself then the role would be meaningless. That isn't to say that I take the insults as hits to my self-esteem and cry myself to sleep after every DF, it's just that to me, tanking is supposed to be for people who can take punishment and not let it get to them. In gear-terms and emotional terms. There's a reason most people just go DPS, and it has nothing to do with threat generation. Even with how easy tanking is in WoW, there's still a tank shortage. There will *always* be a tank shortage. The only thing developers can do is encourage the tanks that *do* play to queue up more often, which increased rewards will do. Most people aren't going to roll tank for added bonuses because if they could handle tanking they'd have done it in the first place, and the amount of people that'll make this change for the added incentive still won't make a dent in the numbers.

Yes you'll get attitude from Monks/Dragoons for repositioning while chasing mobs to get emnity back and things like that, but melee *always* complains about movement. If they didn't have to move, the game would get boring for them quickly as well since it would just be "stand still - do rotation", but there are absolutely melee that despise constant movement (and should've played ranged) and are *really* vocal about their discontent (due to boss mechanics or tank movement), you don't have to internalize their attitude or explain anything to them, just let them vent and keep going. Good players "get it", players that don't either haven't been playing long enough or never will "get it" because they have a bad attitude. Don't let it drag you down, don't internalize it, just keep the run going. Don't pick fights, don't give in to being baited into an argument, because both usually just *end* runs, and also keep in mind that sometimes the seemingly harsh criticism is coming from someone that is actually giving you good advice, but is emotional because you're the tank, if you make a mistake and they have to give you advice it's because your mistake just made the run harder for everyone. It's going to have some attitude behind it, even if they have good intentions.

If aggro didn't ping to players aside from the tank sometimes, tanking would be boring. Don't believe me, try WoW tanking in its current form. I absolutely do *not* want that with FFXIV.

What it sounds like people are saying is they don't like complaints, and if you don't want to hear complaints from other players you shouldn't play an MMO. Tanks screw positioning or lose aggro, Healers mismanage mana or accidentally go out-of-range and can't land a crucial heal, DPS misses rotation/CD management on DPS check fights or fails to blow an LB properly. Even if you do a flawless run, someone will find reason to complain. Making roles less fun will never change that, it'll just make playing amidst the complaints less rewarding.

[Zirael_Foxfire]

[...] Both are things tanks just need to learn to deal with being the leader of the groups, if you never ate trash for other people's mistakes/not operating at 100% yourself then the role would be meaningless. That isn't to say that I take the insults as hits to my self-esteem and cry myself to sleep after every DF, it's just that to me, tanking is supposed to be for people who can take punishment and not let it get to them. [...]

When we're talking aboout low level dungeons where you're still learning your, possibly first, job, I disagree with what you said above. You should not get grief for the first 49 levels of the game. Even if your gear is bad and you lack cross class abilities.

Again, I can load SCH, go to let's say Halatali or Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak, cast Protect, cast Selene and do NOTHING else for the rest of the run, just follow the party. Noone will die. And noone will say a bad word to me.
I can load Archer or BRD with lv10 bow and armor. Spam Heavy Shot for the whole entitety of the run. Noone will question my DPS. Noone will complain it took 45min to complete dungeon.

Try going to Halatali or even Sastasha with lv10 weapon and armor, get paired up with lv23 synced people.
The grief tanks get is due to imbalance in how game systems punish mistakes and shortcomings of a tank compared to healer or DPS. Game systems and balance issues make tank job much more stressful to level up, and Devs need to change those. 3k gil and 25k exp extra once per day won't change how stressful and not fun it is to level up tank. Especially for newbies who don't know dungeon layout, pull order, proper rotations.

I agree with you about need to make effort to manage threat when it comes to endgame tho. I remember massive issues my LS tanks had with Spiny Plume for example. And they enjoyed ironing out who, where and how pulls it. Or T4 Knights/Soldiers. Or Titan Ex. Or Moogle. But leave that to end game, where you have all the tools and gear at your disposal.

[NotTheNameIWanted]

I can load Archer or BRD with lv10 bow and armor. Spam Heavy Shot for the whole entitety of the run. Noone will question my DPS. Noone will complain it took 45min to complete dungeon.

This'll change when we get full add-on support and most people are running a DPS meter.

I hope I don't sound elitist, the thing is I'm new to the game as well, and my leveling experience in dungeons was pretty rough. But I felt that's because I was the tank, I had to lead things, set up pulls, and I didn't know *anything* about the dungeons. I feel a *lot* of the pressure would've been off me if I weren't new to the game after the content had been out a year, but that's the way it is now, most people running the dungeons *know* the content and expect everyone else too as well. If I was DPS, sure, what you mentioned would apply as well, but I'd also just have to follow the tank. Noone's expecting DPS to lead, that falls to the tank. And though the healing "rotation" while leveling is simple, so is the tanking rotation. The only thing that really makes tanking as a newbie difficulty, imo, is this:

newbies who don't know dungeon layout, pull order

Which is compounded by being a new tank in content that most people just want to speed-farm for dailies/weeklies.

As far as the "relax" thing... how does that apply to HMs/raids/extremes? I don't mean this to sound cruel (though I know it may be interpreted that way), but relaxing to some is having something that *really* requires their focus. Gaming = escapism for me, and if it's too easy, I might as well be watching TV, because the easier it is, the less interactive it is. Which is why I don't like the idea of *any* of this getting easier. I think it's fine the way it is. I'm actually displeased at the 2.2 notes showing how they're going to be nerfing existing content (ie. the Demon Wall nerf), but that's why I'm just trying to get as much out of this game as I can right now. As far as I'm concerned, people who want to relax by doing as little as possible should stick to laid-back content (crafting, soloing and upcoming gardening), while those who relax by getting more involved stick to the more involved content.

I realize it's not a popular opinion, but I love the spot the game is in right now, but I also know that over time it's only going to get easier and easier, until it gets so simple I end up looking for another MMO to start it over with again.

[Zirael_Foxfire]

I realize it's not a popular opinion, but I love the spot the game is in right now, but I also know that over time it's only going to get easier and easier, until it gets so simple I end up looking for another MMO to start it over with again.

I don't think you have to worry about that too much. They are nerfing<2.16 content so that people catch up to 2.2 content. Next week very few people will be doing AK for example, because armor it offers will be total junk and it will be more efficient to do new dungeons for points. Coil T6-T9 is where the hardcore action will be. Hopefully it'll keep us entertained.
Also, you don't sound elitist, don't worry, more like knowing your value and standards.
Also, I hope you had a chance to try Aurum Vale and The Sunken Temple of Quarn before all the nerfs. People timing out on first boss of Quarn... Good memories.

[Steffie]

I like the way tanking is right now, maybe *slight* improvements on enmity gains for certain skills, but something like tripling the threat on Flash would just turn this game into WoW.

I agree with this guy. Part of the reason why i really enjoy tanking in this game is that you actually have to pay more attention than WoW tanking. I played a Death knight tank for 2 years and i can count the number of time i got aggro stolen from me. 4 TIME. Generating threat in wow is hilariously easy that i usually doze off on dungeons finders in tank and spank boss. It will probably never happen in FFXIV since the moment you doze off, a mob probably start attacking other ppl. Other improvement that i wanted in here is for the Provoke to be a bit more WoW-like in that you got like a 3 second grace to build more threat rather than +1 threat which the current provoke does.

[LukeyP666]

Being thick-skinned and knowing how to learn from the criticism is the key to tanking, in my opinion.

This is actually my first ever MMO, but I'm a life-long FF Fan, and always felt like I missed out on FFXI, so jumped at the chance to play 2.0.

I remember back to picking my starting class, not having any idea on the roles that they would play, and decided to go with the Marauder and their giant axe because surely they would do huge damage... How wrong I was....

Was constantly plagued by people telling me 'L2P' and calling me a noob throughout my levelling process, but the criticism only spurred me to get better at the role, and not run away and roll a DPS class instead.

The first time I decided to sit up and take notice was when I reached Aurum Vale. I'd been stuck on it for days and days, continuously getting to the final boss and wiping due to people not AOE'ing the mobs down... Until I found the perfect party through Duty Finder - A White Mage and two Black Mages. Perfect, I thought - Huge AOE damage for the final boss. First boss, no problems, second boss and I could not hold hate to save my life, so they all left, calling me a noob and a bad tank.

Instead of re-rolling, I went away and watched videos, read up on how to be a better Tank and how to use my skills to their full potential, and hey presto, the next DF group I joined, we one-shotted the entire dungeon.

Tanking for me is all about being thick skinned and *learning* from the criticism, no matter how rude and obnoxious people are. We all seem to be saying DPS are the obnoxious ones, but I've come across loads of rude Tanks in my time while levelling other classes.

In terms of making Tanking more attractive, I really don't think giving mounts and extra rewards will make people take it up, because I really do think it takes a different kind of personality to play a Tank, which sadly, this game definitely seems to be lacking.