Lack of tanks in the game

[mythicrose]

I agree with Delorean. I see WAY more tanks acting full on rude, belittling or condescending to the DPS and healers than I see anyone acting rude to the tank.

That's probably because you've yet to level a tank. However, don't use CT as an example of a rude tank. That place is a cesspool and breeding ground for trolls. My own experiences of tanking and dpsing have seen about the same level of rudeness directed at the tank. Sometimes the rudeness is warrented, but mostly it's some douche being an unjustified ass clown.

[NorthernLadMSP]

That's probably because you've yet to level a tank. However, don't use CT as an example of a rude tank. That place is a cesspool and breeding ground for trolls. My own experiences of tanking and dpsing have seen about the same level of rudeness directed at the tank. Sometimes the rudeness is warrented, but mostly it's some douche being an unjustified ass clown.

Well, I definitely agree that anyone has the potential to be rude. I'm just sharing my point of view of the times when people have insulted me personally.

The three other times I have specifically been attacked, insulted, belittled etc. have also been by tanks. One in Haukke HM, one in Castum M and once in Brayflox. So, in the 5 instances of rudeness directed towards me, all of them have been instigated by tanks. Two of those instances, I had politely stated at the very beginning that that was my first time.

[mythicrose]

The three other times I have specifically been attacked, insulted, belittled etc. have also been by tanks. One in Haukke HM, one in Castum M and once in Brayflox. So, in the 5 instances of rudeness directed towards me, all of them have been instigated by tanks. Two of those instances, I had politely stated at the very beginning that that was my first time.

You know what? My first times tanking in Qarn (pre-nerf), Cutter's Cry, Stone Vigil, and Aurum Vale all lead to insults directed at me... no one bothered to give me a heads up. All insults were given by dps. People + internet anonymity = abundant assholes.

I grow tiresome of people always pointing to the tanks as the asshats when there are asshats in every role. Truth is we all deal with them (tanks) only becuase it's often easier to ignore them than boot them and wait for a new tank. I know many dps I've booted for being assholes....simply because they are easy to replace.

[Delorean]

Tanks increase group damage by keeping mobs organized and allowing healers to keep everyone safe and dps themselves. Tanks also do a decent chunk of damage.

Well, in the grand scheme of things when you look at what a tank contributes to a party, it's largely "making things attack me and not dying", which is something we have been doing in RPGs without a Tank for a very long time.

[KrenianKandos]

tl;dr changes I'd like to see:
1) Shield Oath and Defiance learned at lv 15, but it probably won't happen.
2) Enmity bonus on Overpower and Flash tripled. Or TP/MP cost cut 1/3.
3) Range of Shield Lob and Tomahawk increased to 20-25y to help with pulling enemies across the battlefield. Having to control hate on multiple enemies and coordinate their placement on battlefield is currently too cumbersome and stressful.
4) Range of basic abilities doubled from 3y to 6y to help control enemies in packs without having to run around and constantly change enemy position. You get lots of grief from MNKs and DRGs for moving around.
5) Combo chance duration doubled to help maintain enmity holding when moving between enemy packs.

1) Makes no sense in the class/job system they have going right now. You're giving a defensive CD to the class when it's supposed to be able to branch off later to other jobs that may not need to tank. As someone suggested, however, I'm fully on board for Shield Oath to be the level 30 skill that you learn. It's one of those skills that is almost pivotal for a Paladin being a tank. I don't understand why they made it so far off. Defiance at 30 already happens so it's not too bad.


2) Disagree with Flash. With an MP regenerating combo that Paladin Has, I've Yet to run into mana issues and lost hate on mobs on my Paladin. It's called resource management and it's something a tank should learn how to do. Same goes for Overpower and OP isn't so bad either as you normally just OP with multiple mobs 2-3 times with a couple of flashes and then run a combo through mobs. These are skills that I didn't read up on but adapted by learning my class on my own and the mechanics. Most people need to do this. The threshold is a bit higher on a tank, but not impossible for any soundminded individual to play.

3) As nice as this would be because I've run into situations where the mark I want dead first is beyond the range of me not pulling the group, it's not absolutely necessary. Would be nice, but not necessary.

4) Absolutely not. The amount of moving around that I do is solely based on if I cannot interrupt a skill with Shield Bash, or Silence. A tank needs to understand WHEN it's acceptable to move and when it's not. Just like a DD needs to understand WHEN it's right to begin your rotation. I play a ILVL 75 MNK and I have yet to complain about a tank moving around too much because, honestly, I understand it takes a moment to position and attack. It's this mentality of everything must die immediately that needs to be resolved.


And THAT is where the crux of the problem is for the lack of tanks: The rewards never outweigh the risks that a tank is going to deal with. Simply put: A tank will always be one of the first ones to be praised if the run goes well, or the first one to be criticized when crap hits the fan. And that's simply because people are asshats. No ifs, no ands, and no buts.

Everyone has a certain amount of tolerance they have when it comes to dealing with rudeness. Some people quit playing the job because they don't want to deal with the abuse. Others play the job, but make sure it's with people they know they won't get slammed on. In the end, it isn't a very forgiving role and never has been. There isn't any fix unless humanity decides to actually regain something that we are losing: being human. Being understanding. Being...oh I don't know...nice??

[Deroth]

I don't see the issue with tanks being designed badly or boring in of themselves, it is the design of group content.

For trash mobs tanks just turn them away from group then click while dps burn them.

Then there are the boss fights... whoever thought that turning DDR into an mmo with a RPG skin is a good idea needs to catch the beating of the millennia. There aren't tactics, no strategies, just learn the dance (where to stand and when, the ' harder' the content the more dance steps to memorize.)

Due to this the less than a handful of fights that actually require some kind of strategy (examples: Pharos Sirius and King Mog) can be a lot of fun for the tank until they get sick of too many people not understanding that just because they got away with standing in one place only attacking one target once doesn't mean it'll work every time.

[Zourin]

There's not a shortage of tanks. There are tons of people with level 50 paladins and warriors bumming around. They don't play because:

a) Other classes are more fun. PLD's are three button wonders when it comes to combat. While 'tanking mechanics' are an art, the class itself is as well flavored as elmers glue. Fast -> Circle -> Rage -> Repeat is not engaging, and Sword Oath is a paltry offering for a DPS option when there's no need for an OT'ing or solo PLD.

b) It's a pile of responsibility. Tanks are responsible for being fast learners or knowing a dungeon and boss fights inside and out while simultaneously maintaining overwatch in case adds happen or something peels off. The entire group hinges entirely on the tank, as they are not easily replaced and progress can come to a screetching halt if you're missing one.

c) There's no incentive to re-queue in the roulettes. The payouts are paltry, even for an 'in-need' class. You can get people rolling for tanks once a day for low level roulette and Main Quest roulette, maybe even high level roulette, but once those tokens are awarded, there's VERY little incentive to rerun to help the other 9 groups that are in queue waiting for a tank.

d) You're weighed VERY heavily by your gear by the public, and very few value a talented paladin that can hold their own next to an inexperienced someone 5-10 iLvl's higher. People would rather wait until they greed-roll a high level PLD set before ever actually tanking and shortcut their way through relic quests as another, less gear and responsibility heavy class.

e) Warriors are often seen as 'risky' main tanks because of their lack of damage mitigation options compared to the paladin, who are more efficient to heal per MP.

[SpookyGhost]

e) Warriors are often seen as 'risky' main tanks because of their lack of damage mitigation options compared to the paladin, who are more efficient to heal per MP.

Assuming you haven't played since 2.0 or something, but:

WAR vs PLD is roughly a 2% heal difference now. WAR also has a 6s Rampart every 23s maximum, a 15s Sentinel (with some added damage and small healing from +Bloodbath), Thrill of Battle, and a constant 10% mitigation from Storm's Path. While it takes more to play WAR effectively, the two tanks are pretty much on par with eachother - the main difference being Hallowed Ground which WAR only has Holmgang to match (and Holmgang sucks).

[Pooky_Pasha]

Assuming you haven't played since 2.0 or something, but:

WAR vs PLD is roughly a 2% heal difference now. WAR also has a 6s Rampart every 23s maximum, a 15s Sentinel (with some added damage and small healing from +Bloodbath), Thrill of Battle, and a constant 10% mitigation from Storm's Path. While it takes more to play WAR effectively, the two tanks are pretty much on par with eachother - the main difference being Hallowed Ground which WAR only has Holmgang to match (and Holmgang sucks).

To build on this, there are many fights (ones with heavy, predictable spike damage), in which I believe a well played WAR is less "risky" than a PLD. At the end of the day, however, if a PLD can tank it, a WAR can tank it just as effectively. If a WAR can tank it, a PLD can tank it just as effectively.

[Anatole]

I would agree with SpookyGhost here. even in the endgame content the warrrior is a good viable option.

f.ex. in my static i have become main tank in 2,1 for Twin fight since the warrior has a high HP pool and inner beast with its 20% mitigation that fits well with the huge damage that comes during the fight. i will also agree with spooky that both tanks are different but closely matched in most fights.