Men in Dresses

[Gramul]

Do keep in mind that genetic and chemical disposition means diddly squat if you don't take advantage of it. Playing videogames and chatting on message boards all day won't make anyone stronger, male or female. Ya gotta get out there and work it.

[Mychael]

What you are not understanding is that being gay or trans is not a belief nor an opinion. People who don't like that people are gay or trans don't have to embrace it at all, but they cannot restrict it. They can certainly believe what they want to believe, but the moment that turns into action that prevents someone who is gay or trans from simply living openly as gay or trans without repercussion there is a problem.

It is no one's fault for believing what they believe, even if that impairs others. While it's true that me not being able to make out in public is an injustice to me, it's similarly unjust for me to do so when there are highly conservative, religous families nearby. To them, I am making a choice to sin, and am evil. To me, they are making a choice to be bigoted and closed-minded.

The reality of the situation is, my actions are based on my knowledge (that being gay is not a choice), and theirs are based on their knowledge (that being gay IS a choice). Science may be on my side, but history is on theirs, for the moment. Someone has to question their deeply-embedded beliefs. It may be hard to understand, but some peoples' religions and beliefs are so deeply ingrained that they are probably equivalent to sexual orientation in rigidity.

There is no win-win situation here. Like I said earlier, SE will probably avoid taking sides on this issue.

In regards to your sign image, it's a shop in Japan, they don't HAVE to serve tourists and likely don't want to due to language barriers. Amazing what a problem language can be. As for the quoted, you're right. It's not just a right, it's an inalienable right. We are ALL free to pursue our own identities in our own ways to our own ends and noone can take that away from us. People have gone to jail, or worse, for trying to infringe on this inalienable right. Now, there IS a line in how far this can be defended. If, in the pursuit of your identity, you try to PHYSICALLY involve others who do not want a part of it then you are in the wrong as you are then infringing on THEIR inalienable right. This is the ONLY time you can do anything about it. You speak of tolerance yet say, "Personal identity is not a right." Where's this tolerance you speak of, then?

Hate to break it to you, but inalienable rights are social constructs, just like intolerance and discrimination. What you mean is people WHERE YOU ARE FROM have gone to jail, or worse, for trying. What you fail to realize is the ethnocentrism of your statement, which pretty much ruined any valid argument about an inalienable right to self-identity. Only in a few countries is it illegal to hate gay people; the American judicial system does not decide right and wrong for the whole world.

[Synapse]

"I only liked metroid because i thought Samus was a man!" totally doesn't sound misogynistic at all.

Not at all, in order for me to enjoy the main role, i need to correlate with it, i need to be in the character shoes. As a male, i do not correlate with women. I cant feel the game as i would... i only played fang over lightning in FFXIII is only because fang showed those qualities i would like(not to be confused with feminist *ugh*).

The problem with female leads not being as abundant in gaming is because of misogynistic male gamers who still think women have no place in video games outside of sexualized eyecandy. If there were less misogynistic male developers and gamers in the industry, we'd see a lot more well-written female leads.

Lol that excuse, sorry nope. They cater to whoever wants the game. Just like barbie is not catered to little boys. Gaming was mainly a male thing, and majority of them are still is. Women are the minority in this, but they can crime victim all they like.

The whole developer financial thing will not work if most ppl wont buy the game. Oh wait its better to assume developers are misogynistic, its better to cope like that.

If female lead roles are preferred then we will see them, there is not much demand for them, same goes for men wanting pink dress.

[LineageRazor]

Women are the minority in this, but they can crime victim all they like.

Taken from Wikipediea:

According to a study conducted by the Entertainment Software Association in 2012, "Forty-seven percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (30 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (18 percent)."[30][31]

Entertainment Software Association’s 2013 study found that 45% of game players are female, 2% decrease from last year’s figures.[32] However, women 18 years or older represent 31% of the game-playing population, one percent higher than last year, while boys 17 years and younger represent 19% of the game-playing population.[32] Women over 18 are one of the fastest growing demographics in the gaming industry[33] and the percentage of females in gaming has continued to grow considering only 38% of the gaming population was female in 2006.[34]

While granted the Wiki is not necessarily a reliable source of info, I see no reason to doubt it in this case, as it certainly matches my real-life experience. 45% does still constitue a minority, but hardly an insignificant minority - certainly nothing to indicate that gaming is a "man's world".

Any catering the industry does towards men at the expense of women is a holdover from the old days and financially irresponsible - unless they are exploiting niche male markets. Throwing in hetero-male-oriented eye candy might help to sell the game, but if you don't give the ladies a treat as well, that's nearly half the gaming population you're ignoring.

In the case of Final Fantasy XIII, the biggest complaint I hear about the game has nothing to do with the female lead, but rather the repetitve, linear gameplay.

[Seif]

I gotta say that this thread restores some of my faith in gamers. Not all of you are backwoods bigots and for that working in this industry seems a tiny bit less bleak. And for that I'm very grateful

Keep up that attitude and I'm sure the future will be brighter to those to whom this thread matters the most.

[Shioban]

Holy crap this thread has gotten nuts, 17 pages in a few hours.

Social Justic Warriors in full defence mode.

The answer really is simple.

It's technically possible, but there are other considerations to take into account.
In the end it's the developers choice.

WoW already added dresses, and that's one of the biggest MMOs in the industry, and has been for years. I heard no uproar about them making males able to wear dresses, like, none.

It wasn't a deep thought of "Yes...yes...we're breaking the boundaries of gender identity and stereotyping here."
More likely than not it was "lol, I put the dress texture on the male models" "LOL, PUT IT IN THE FINAL BUILD".

You didn't hear an uproar because there wouldn't be one. It's not something so radical that people would be rioting in the streets.
As I've said before "Mountains out of Molehills" here, people are taking this as TOO big a thing from what people have said in this thread so far.

Not to mention reeling this out into out of context and un-related gargon. (IE, Phobias/Social-Nuances/Opinions/Stereotypes)

The only reason I can see for the developers avoiding it is because they'll simply think "Oh, but men don't wear dresses like that." and then move onto the next thing.
It really is as simple as that, not "What gender specific boundaries and limitations are we creating here by limiting players to gender specific clothing?"

I could be wrong, but the evidence so far suggests otherwise. For a very busy development team considerations like these don't seem to be a big priority.

But who knows, maybe in the future i'll get to wear a samba-dress and do cartwheels wearing a fruit-hat on Christmas Eve down the streets of Ishguard.
Only time will tell.

I gotta say that this thread restores some of my faith in gamers. Not all of you are backwoods bigots and for that working in this industry seems a tiny bit less bleak. And for that I'm very grateful

Keep up that attitude and I'm sure the future will be brighter to those to whom this thread matters the most.

As a developer these sort of things just don't come up in the planning stages often, I've never encountered it much as a huge complaint or consideration.
I think "neglecting" to add an addition so that men wear a Boudice Corset dress isn't exactly a "Bleak Mark" on the history of video games development.

Not everyone here is Bigoted just because they don't share the same opinion as you. Not every single person who disagreed in this thread did so out of malicious hatred, it's just something they'd rather not have added to this game, specifically.

NOTHING is stopping you from wearing a dress in real life, no-one is telling you "Men can't wear dresses".
What some people are saying, is that in terms of this particular video games development, it's very unlikely.

NOT that it's never going to happen, just that it's (to re-emphasise) very unlikely.

Technically it's possible, it'll just require a lot of extra work to re-mesh, re-toplogise, re-texture, re-bake, re-rig/weight and test, so if they haven't made a model for it now it'll only be in future content you'll be seeing something like this. The FFXIV development team aren't fond of going back and adjusting finalised content.

We'll find out when and if there's a response to the thread in the future.

[Azurymber]

I don't understand arguments like "Some people are uncomfortable with men in dresses so there should be no men in dresses"
I'm sure some people are uncomfortable with people in pants. Should we ban pants?
Maybe some people are uncomfortable with the colour red? Time to ban all red in FFXIV?

This is a Japanese game... One of Japan's biggest entertainment industries is "visual kei" where guys are crossdressed as Renaissance princesses. There are like 100+ gender-bending animes and mangas, many of which are/were insanely popular in japan (e.g. Ranma).

So the argument that something should be kept out of a game because a few people find it uncomfortable and weird just comes off as kind of ridiculous.
It won't affect gameplay, it's not going to scar a bunch of people for life, etc.

Saying it's unlikely is fine
Arguing that you don't think people should have MORE CHOICE in a game is just a veiled way of saying you aren't comfortable with it

[Shioban]

I don't understand arguments like "Some people are uncomfortable with men in dresses so there should be no men in dresses"
I'm sure some people are uncomfortable with people in pants. Should we ban pants?

No, the point being.

Pants are common across both genders.

Dresses are not.

Yet again you're missing the point of social normalties, which are going to be a huge factor in implementing something like this.

It's not about gender equality, AT ALL. It's about consistency in design decisions.




This is the biggest problem with these topics, a sensible response is given.

And people turn it into an "I'm being opressed!" "Bigots!" "Homo/Transphobics!" to get their point across, making it even more of a deal that it really needs to be.

This is a Japanese game... One of Japan's biggest entertainment industries is "visual kei" where guys are crossdressed as Renaissance princesses.

Visual Kei is a very small minority.

[Parodine]

Really? Causes most robes look like dresses to me.

Seems the most consistent thing to do would be to make the dresses for both and be done with it.

If you don't want to wear it, fine, don't wear it. God forbid they inject more choices into this game.

[myahele]

Probably not gonna happen. The lighting event was gender restricted. As well as the WHM culottes.

Doubt SE will do it, unless its another vanya-esque type robe