The number of bad players are rising!

[Velo_Vandore]

Foo01, I think I understand your point, and I'd like to summarize in my own words if that's cool - The odds that you'll run into a player that has an outrageous and completely ineffective style of gameplay that can't be worked around is very very unlikely. While it does happen, it's so infrequent it's pointless to use such examples for this particular thread which is focusing on the rising number of bad players (implying they are commonly encountered). Unfortunately, we can't define "bad" easily but we should at least for our arguments in this thread try to focus on situations that we frequently meet in game. Bringing up the once in a blue moon crazy encounter doesn't really help from either side of the debate.

So I think Foo01's point is that 90% of the time you don't need to tell the other players how to play their class down to the skill. Communication is good, and of course if asked, it's great to share tactics that you've learned. The reason it's sensitive is that it's hard for any player to discover they are the weak link pulling the group down, and when confronted with this by another player, even politely, it can be hard for some to accept and they respond badly. More often than not after a wipe or two the players figure things out for themselves and improve enough so the team can clear the content. Personally I think a little guidance and friendly suggestion is helpful if done without blaming or guilting.

Apart from the hardest content (which, you know, is meant to be hard and not go smoothly), 90% of duty finder runs end ultimately in success. This percentage is purely a guess from my own experience but I'm sure you'll agree it's fairly accurate. If we're clearing the content in random groups this frequently I feel there's nothing to complain about regarding the number of incompetent players. If you get through then you get through. Complaining that duty finder runs aren't fast enough, or that you had to work harder than another player because they weren't performing their role optimally is in my opinion, very very sad and pathetic, but unfortunately also very common and met with much sympathy from much of the community.

On the other hand Foo01 points out how we have almost 100% of duty finder runs on main scenario and some other content being speedruns as default. When a slower player appears they are harrased for watching scenes and making mistakes. In my own experience also I've found this very common, to the point that I decided to stop using the duty finder shortly after hitting lvl50 and started up a linkshell for players that don't mind exploring dungeons (including optional area's and fights) and supporting each other win or lose. The linkshell is thriving and I use it almost exclusively for dungeons but the opportunity to progress at any decent pace is greatly hindered as a result.

I can say with some confidence I'm not an incompetent player, and even though my playtime is somewhat limited, I believe I would be quite capable of fitting in with the speedrunners and could clear all the games current content if I wanted to. But that's wouldn't be fun for me based on the duty finder experiences I've had. Now, occasionally I'll be encouraged to calm down and watch certain AOE's or to just heal when I'm trying to get in on the damage ^^; but that's not been an issue for me. I welcome polite advice or criticism as best I can, and have never been raged at directly. The issue I have is that I hate being expected to speed run (even though I can do it). I want to experience the dungeon as intended first, until I get bored of it. I'm not saying that after 4 or 5 runs of the same dungeon I wouldn't consider speedrunning to farm tomes and gear, but that would only be with other experienced players, and I wouldn't use the duty finder for such a run. I think it's very inconsiderate to use the duty finder that way, particularly for roulette runs where you're arguably being paid a bonus for supporting new players and slowing down.

Many would use the argument that 7/8 people want to speedrun, but let's consider the percentage of players who are not happy with a speedrun, but avoid df for that very reason because it's full of selfish bullies who won't accept otherwise. Many players like myself will not have gone to the effort to seek out other like minded players - they'll probably just quit the game or start another class / character feeling they can't cope with end game - that's so unfair and such a shame! Shame on this community for scaring players away from content and making them feel inadequate when they are more than capable of overcoming it with just a little practice and support! And why? So you can get your f***ing tomes faster? /fume

@ ispano - you make good points, and certainly you seem like a polite and helpful player, but I would have to agree with Foo01 that the number of players who actually drag the group down and can't work with the team to clear a dungeon is very low. I do however agree it's good to offer assistance if it can be done without offending the person, but if they'll take offense just leave them to it and count your losses. Since 9/10 times you'll be clearing in duty finder why worry about one player in 10 that doesn't want your advise? Not worth upsetting anyone over it.